Discussion of The Lord of the Rings, and Silmarion

[Hockeyruler]

what happened to the children of the spider that helped Melkor destroy the two trees (forget their name on was maybe telperion? i don't remember...) We know that Shelob was killed but did the other children find a place to call their own and begin breeding there or were they wiped out by the elves or some other force?

[Inlé_rah]

Some other force probably. The spiders are never mentioned as direct servants of Morgoth and were probably not direct participants in the War of the Jewels, much like Shelob was just there in the pass of Cirith Ungol, brooding in her evil for longer than Sauron has inhabited Mordor.

Shelob was the "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world." That seems to imply that the rest of Ungoliat's are dead by the time of the War of the Ring. There was some mention of them in the Silmarillion though. Ungoliant disappeared into the far south, but she left the northern lands infested with her offspring. During the First Age, the mountains of the Ered Gorgoroth were infested with these monsters, and became a place of dread.

Of course, almost all of Beleriand ended up under water after the War of Wrath.

In the final battle that saw the ultimate defeat of Morgoth, Beleriand was broken and destroyed, and Ered Gorgoroth was drowned.

PS: The trees names were Telperion and Laurelin.

[Hockeyruler]

yay i got one of the names right!

who's morgoth? lol i feel stupid... melkor was one of the.... ummm i don't remember exact name he was a part of that one guys mind and part of the overall gods right? but who was morgoth

whats the war of wrath? sounds like some god thing... (i swear i read silmarion but you know... too many people, places, and things...)

well since there can't be much discussion after your answer... NEW TOPIC!

what do you think happens to Humans after they die. In the book they go over the seas and even Mandos (correct name? also god who patrols [for want of a better word] the halls filled with elf....souls?) doesn't know what happens to them. it would leave you to think that the "creator" (that one dude who was all powerfull...) is the only one who knows where they go.

[Inlé_rah]

yay i got one of the names right!

who's morgoth? lol i feel stupid... melkor was one of the.... ummm i don't remember exact name he was a part of that one guys mind and part of the overall gods right? but who was morgoth
The Vala formerly known as Melkor. The gods was a name used by men for the Valar (the Ainur or the holy ones who entered Arda - the created world). Melkor had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge among the Ainur, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He was prideful and wanted to bring greater glory to himself, and contends with Iluvatar's vision of his creation in the music of the Ainur, and thus first brings discord into the world. (I swear... on bad days, reading the Silmarillion is like reading Paradise Lost with elves...)

The character is not properly called ‘Morgoth’ until he is given the name by Fëanor. This happens after Melkor kills the Two Trees, kills Fëanor's father, snatches the Silmarils, flees Valinor, and more or less jump starts the 'plot.' Feanor had quite a bit to do with that whole plot bit too. The oath and the Doom of Mandos are the most interesting parts of the mythology, imo.

whats the war of wrath? sounds like some god thing... (i swear i read silmarion but you know... too many people, places, and things...)
It is. The War of Wrath was the final battle that ended the First Age. It was a decisive victory of the host of the Valar over the forces of Morgoth. There were several battles in the War of the Jewels, but only with the intervention of the Valar could the Noldor overcome Morgoth...

what do you think happens to Humans after they die. In the book they go over the seas and even Mandos (correct name? also god who patrols [for want of a better word] the halls filled with elf....souls?) doesn't know what happens to them. it would leave you to think that the "creator" (that one dude who was all powerfull...) is the only one who knows where they go.Mandos knows as does Manwë. "Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go."

Human souls first go to the Halls of Mandos when they die, but he cannot hold them there because that is not the fate they were given by Iluvatar. The Elves were bound to Arda, but Men were given strange gift by which they were not:

"But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope."

Sauron played upon the fear of death, which is basically Men's fear of the unknown and their uncertainty as to where they go after they die. In this way, the Gift of Iluvatar became seen as a curse. (This is where you get Ar-Pharazon of Numenor and the whole reinacting of the myth of Atlantis thing known as the Akallabeth.)

But it is not even within the given nature of Men to remain in Arda:
"The hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest."

Men ultimately seek beyond the confines of the world, and it is they who are the race with the ultimate freedom. They proceed away from the world and leave its borders. Because they are not bound by the music, they can sow great discord in the world but they can also enlarge and surpass the vision of Arda.

Doubt that answers anything. If you read into it, there is a vision behind Tolkein's larger opus, that can easily be considered, for lack of a better word, theological.

And that, boys and girls, is why Feanor could not get his shines back. Because good ends can never come from wicked means (ie. killing extended family when they won't lend you a yaught to go after the bastard who killed your dad, stole your greatest works, and darkened the blessed realm). "To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well."

PS: Reading the Feanorian tale interspersed with a bit of Machiavelli is fun...

[Hockeyruler]

wow nice post. you can't have remembered all that from the silmarilion even if you've read it 5 times. i can now see why everything turns into questioning some aspect of the valar or iluvatar. hmmmm so i think what you said was that Men are (for want of a better word) creative? and so thats why they can make discord but also are in a way bigger than Arda. so does that mean that they travel to another place like Arda but different after they die?

oh i've got another question. whats the Red Book about? i heard about it in LOTR, i think some hobbit said something about it. and is Bilbo's Last Song a real book or is it something for little kids?

[shortkut]

the red book is the hobbit+the "three" lotr books. it starts with bilbo's tale and ends when frodo goes into the west.

hockeyruler, no one will be upset if you make more threads for your many questions. in fact, we encourage it.

[Hockeyruler]

will do.

now back on topic.

in the Men afterlife is it something anywhere near real life or is it real life except mortal ineficencies are gone? (you can fly etc.)

[Inlé_rah]

in the Men afterlife is it something anywhere near real life or is it real life except mortal ineficencies are gone? (you can fly etc.)
I don't know. All that is really said is that their soul move beyond the created world. They are not bound to the circles of the world it in either hope or in weariness.

There's one think in the Tolkein mythos that might be of use here...The Debate of Finrod and Andreth... It's relatively obscure within the Tolkein canon.

Andreth, a mortal woman states that men have no hope for their fate. Finrod then asks if they have any deeper hope or trust (estel), a trust that whatever happened in the past, Eru will not forsake them since they, like the elves, are children of Iluvatar. Some people who read this debate think that Iluvatar gathers men's souls to him, which sounds a whole lot like misappropriated Christianity.

Having read most of the debate, the whole thing reeks of appropriated Christian (and a few platonic) elements with the the very notable exception of death being a gift rather than a punishment (though fearing death, men see it as a punishment). As Andreth tells it, the only men with a deeper hope (estel), "those of the old hope," apparently trust in a belief that Eru/Iluvatar will someday enter the world an heal the marring of Arda. No. I'm not joking.

[Hockeyruler]

i remember the part about men fearing death that was in the valinor part right?

now that we know everything possible to know about what happens to Men's afterlife. what do you think happens to them. based on the facts do you think that someday Iluvatar will reward Men? do you think they will ever get to return to Arda? Or do you think Men will remain in their own sort of afterlife for the length of the time of Arda. If you think they remain in their own after life forever, what kind of afterlife do you think it is?