CrAzY! is no longer a moderator at this website.

[Ben]

CrAzY! (http://forums.gamewinners.com/forums/member.php?u=257) just earnt his second signature removal, and that sh*t doesn't fly if you're a moderator (which he isn't, anymore).

[syncan]

*GASP* He was the mod for the SSBM forum, my favorite! How could he...

[Air Head]

wow what was is sig anyway?

Speaking of sigs syncan yours is way to big. filesize and hight

[Coleman]

*GASP* He was the mod for the SSBM forum, my favorite! How could he...For the same reason that I just killed your signature.

[Crazy Jamie]

*GASP* He was the mod for the SSBM forum, my favorite! How could he...Don't worry, you'll have a new and very capable moderator soon. Possibly two.

[Air Head]

ohh ohh pick me just look at my sig...

And when you say capable do you mean someon old or new people? And I though this was for sight banneds not like sig banns

[Alice!]

wow what was is sig anyway?Slightly over the filesize limit, and also too tall.

ohh ohh pick me just look at my sig...

And when you say capable do you mean someon old or new people? And I though this was for sight banneds not like sig bannsA sig does not a moderator make. Video Gamer and I are modding it now.

[Crazy Jamie]

And when you say capable do you mean someon old or new people?When I say capable I mean capable. It just so happens that two current moderators expressed an interest in taking up the position. And I though this was for sight banneds not like sig banns It's for anything that we think the member body should be aware of. And a moderator being demodded certainly falls into that category.

[Air Head]

i forgot about hiuim being a mod... i knew that...

LP: i was joking about my sig and stuff. Even if i were to get nominated (which i wouldnt) I dont even think I'd pass. so in means of me being a mod anytime soon for any reason whatsoever its slim to none

[beefbutcher88]

So Crazy, after modding the SSB forum for like 5 years, loses his spot for a sig violation. I have to say that I don't really get that. Crazy was a great mod, he did his job well. If his sig was a little too big, that means he made a mistake. It doesn't make him unfit to be a mod.

I'd also like to submit that I don't get why two guys, even though they seem cool to me, are made mods of that forum, even though I've never seen either one post there, well, ever, and there are people there (myself included) who have been there for years and know the ins and outs of SSB like no one else at GW.

[Quaz]

only on his second? why not 3rd? I thought it was 3 strikes... not two O_o

[Coleman]

So Crazy, after modding the SSB forum for like 5 years, loses his spot for a sig violation. I have to say that I don't really get that. Crazy was a great mod, he did his job well. If his sig was a little too big, that means he made a mistake. It doesn't make him unfit to be a mod.It was his SECOND signature violation. And those things are treated very seriously around here. He's a MODERATOR, he's supposed to know the rules, and enforce them, and he couldn't even get it right for himself. I nuked five or six other signatures from that forum. As well as other outstanding problems. His time was due.

I'd also like to submit that I don't get why two guys, even though they seem cool to me, are made mods of that forum, even though I've never seen either one post there, well, ever, and there are people there (myself included) who have been there for years and know the ins and outs of SSB like no one else at GW.Because they are mods, and you are not. Mods are allowed to take any forum they wish if it is modless, or if the other mods agree. They don't have to know anything about it. Be a good member, and maybe they'll recommend you some day.

only on his second? why not 3rd? I thought it was 3 strikes... not two O_oWhen a mod's sig is removed twice, they get demodded. Mods should know the rules. And if they don't follow them themselves, they obviously can't enforce them.

[PyroFox]

Well, I do believe this is straight up a pile of shyte.

You're going to bust CrAzY for a slight sig violation, take his mod spot away, and throw two other people in there, who none of us have EVER seen before (Well maybe Video Gamer once in a blue moon), and upset the whole balance of the forum.

Because of a slight sig violation.


Dude, I woke up this morning and checked out the forum before I left for the squadron. I thought I was high or something because of what I was seeing. This is unmotherf***ingbelievable.

I'm sick of the damn corruption and the politics that fall into play here. All the posterior-kissing and sucking up that goes on so people can be promoted and what not. I used to be a mod, I witnessed my share of it at the higher levels.

Of course, no one is ever going to own up to those things. I'll probably get blammed for this post, even though I shouldn't cause all I'm doing is speaking my mind and not insulting anyone.

But then again, I really don't give a damn anymore, because it's been such a tightly knit group for so long, that without CrAzY heading it up, it's not even the good ol' SSB forum anymore.

Of course, I'd gladly remod the SSB forum, and so would Fopeboy - but that has no chance of happening because of my 'violation'. Yeah, not saying I did no wrong, but...it's a friggin' sig. And it was marginally over the limit.

Seriously, back up for a second and take a look at it. You all are so caught up in taking disciplinary actions that you're defeating the purpose of the forum to begin with, and that is for people from all over creation to connect via a commonality, and here it's the SSB series. And they should have fun. Kind of hard when you have someone jumping down your throat for a mere 20 pixels of sig overage.

What you've just done underminds that very clause. So, I hope you're happy that you're doing your 'duty'.

[Coleman]

"Minor" this, "minor" that, blah blah blah. It's the simplest rule on the site. Litterally, the easiest one to follow. Flaming, trolling, SPAM, that stuff is in the eye of the moderator. Signatures are cut and dry. Do this, do this, DON'T do this, do this. And no one can seem to follow it. You guys whine when we kill them, but it's your own fault for not following the SIMPLEST f*cking rule.

So sure, it's a minor infraction, but it's a minor infraction of a rule that a child could understand. Coupled with the fact that he was a moderator, it shouldn't have happened ONCE, let alone the second time. It's really not hard to follow. I don't understand why it's so hard to get.

[Aphrodite]

CrAzY! was not a guy with the cleanest history, you know...

[Quaz]

I'm gonna have to agree with pyro on this guys... I honestly dont see anything wrong with limit in lines of words... but a couple pixels? I think Crazy should have just one more chance...

damn it, if only I didn't decide to drop my other mod powers before I could have taken this forum myself... =\

[VashTheStampede]

Coleman, before you take him seriously, check his usernotes. You'll notice a startling similarity between Crazy's dismissal and this guy's past. :chuckle:

Anyway, the way I see it is that we got rid of a moderator that used his announcements to post a "respect list".

Awesome.

I'm gonna have to agree with pyro on this guys... I honestly dont see anything wrong with limit in lines of words... but a couple pixels? I think Crazy should have just one more chance...

How many times does it TAKE to follow the rules?

How is someone supposed to tell others how to follow the rules if they are unable to do so themselves?

From what I've seen, Crazy was a bad moderator, period. It's just too bad that he had to be tossed for something like a bad sig, when we probably should have gotten him on just plain sucking.

[Coleman]

Coleman, before you take him seriously, check his usernotes. You'll notice a startling similarity between Crazy's dismissal and this guy's past.I did, I'm the one that nuked his second signature. :D Like I said, I went into that forum and killed at LEAST five signatures. Which means he clearly didn't know there was a limit AT ALL. What other rules didn't he know about?

Anyway, the way I see it is that we got rid of a moderator that used his announcements to post a "respect list".Not to mention one that basically said all new members were idiots.

There's a good mod. :^:

[PyroFox]

Yeah, like spelling 'Literally' is easy.

But anyway, missing my point - it's the meaning I'm getting at. Yeah, sig violation, minor, major, whatever - he jacked up. But I really don't think that makes him a crappy mod, especially after two violations over the span of FIVE YEARS. Unless there's something else he did we don't know about, like killing someone with a meat grinder.

Whatever. If I'm not ticked off AT anyone, which I shouldn't be, cause all you're doing is enforcing - then I'm ticked off at the standards period. People come to a site and jaw about games 'cause it's fun, not because they want to join a reform school. It's a freakin' forum, and it's run like the CIA.


My bottom line here, I don't think is even directed at leadership anymore. I just think it sucks that after 5 or 6 years, the SSB forum is all of a sudden going to be turned upside down, and I think everyone here agrees with me (With the exception of the new mods probably). And well, that blows. Regardless of who's fault, it blows.


PS I think it's obvious enough you guys have something against CrAzY!. Like, besides him just 'sucking' supposedly. Oh, and being s-mods, aren't you supposed to be corrective and tutorive towards the regular mods, and trying to better the site as a whole...instead of saying they suck?

There's a good s-mod.

[VashTheStampede]

But anyway, missing my point - it's the meaning I'm getting at. Yeah, sig violation, minor, major, whatever - he jacked up. But I really don't think that makes him a crappy mod, especially after two violations over the span of FIVE YEARS. Unless there's something else he did we don't know about, like killing someone with a meat grinder.

Well, considering there were a number of signature infractions in his forum ASIDE from his own...and the fact that he pretty much allowed the members to troll at will, from what I hear...

Wait, why am I justifying sh*t to a guy that just stooped to correcting a typo?

[PyroFox]

Easy, you justified it so you could put that attempt at a return-fire at the bottom to begin with. Otherwise, your post would really have no point other than stating what has been already made obvious.

Plus, I found it entertaining. S-mods are supposed to be 'better' than the members, and setting the standard.

[Coleman]

Yeah, like spelling 'Literally' is easy.Now, you're not one to sink to that kind of level in the midst of a debate, now are you? ...oh wait.

But anyway, missing my point - it's the meaning I'm getting at. Yeah, sig violation, minor, major, whatever - he jacked up. But I really don't think that makes him a crappy mod, especially after two violations over the span of FIVE YEARS. Unless there's something else he did we don't know about, like killing someone with a meat grinder.A meat grinder? Hey yeah! Now THERE'S a reasonable reaction. You say I'm missing your point, but slappy, you're missing the ONLY point.

The only way a moderator can do an effective job is if they KNOW the rules, and more importantly, if they ADHERE to the rules. Judging by the fact that Crazy had had his signature nuked TWICE, judging by the fact that several regulars of his forums had signatures WAY over the limit, he clearly did not even know there WAS a rule against sig height. A few of the signatures I killed weren't "one or two pixels" they were big mother f*cking signatures that it would take a blind guy to miss. Not to mention (as I said) the several other annoyances and infractions we found amongst the rubble of the Super Smash Brothers forum, he definitley deserved to be demodded.

Whatever. If I'm not ticked off AT anyone, which I shouldn't be, cause all you're doing is enforcing - then I'm ticked off at the standards period. People come to a site and jaw about games 'cause it's fun, not because they want to join a reform school.GameWinners forums have a member population of over 80,000, and only about 120 mods to govern them. Do you have any idea how much servers cost? How much bandwidth costs? The rules against signature violations were put in place to prevent the forums crashing on a regular basis. I'd love to see you in here bitching if we took away the rules, and you COULDN'T POST ANYWAY BECAUSE THE FORUMS WERE NEVER ONLINE.

My bottom line here, I don't think is even directed at leadership anymore. I just think it sucks that after 5 or 6 years, the SSB forum is all of a sudden going to be turned upside down, and I think everyone here agrees with me (With the exception of the new mods probably). And well, that blows. Regardless of who's fault, it blows.It's a GOD DAMN FORUM! If anyone knows about my history with the GTA forum, they'd know that I more than most know all about loyalty to a forum. But there comes a time when you have to slap yourself in the face and realize "hey, sh*t, it's just a forum." It's your turn, buddy. Your world isn't going to come to an end if Linux Pingu can't tell you how to unlock the ultra secret mega sword in the fifth to last level while using the bald headed version of Princess Peach.

PS I think it's obvious enough you guys have something against CrAzY!. Like, besides him just 'sucking' supposedly. Oh, and being s-mods, aren't you supposed to be corrective and tutorive towards the regular mods, and trying to better the site as a whole...instead of saying they suck?What I have something against is a mod who has ONE forum, and doesn't even take care of it the way the guidelines are set to do. There are a LOT of mods who work their asses off for this forum, and someone like Crazy skates by on nothing. I don't even know him, I'm sure he's a nice guy, I'm sure he knows Super Smash Brothers, but he's a lousy mod, and shouldn't be one.

There's a good s-mod.Vash is an Admin. His only job is to keep me in check.

[beefbutcher88]

I went up for mod in like January I think. I got voted for by every single person in the forum because I was able to give good advice about the game, I'd been there for a while, and I treated people with the respect they did or didn't deserve. I was voted down (I'm guessing, because no one ever bothered to tell me the result). I don't really know why; all signs I figured would point toward me a being a good selection. But whatever. Pyro's right about all the politicking crap that goes on around here. I realize that many of you enjoy the power high you get when you warn someone, demod them or ban them. That's good for you. I hope you enjoy it. But Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, this is a videogame site. Not the Air Force. Pyro puts up with those standards, not the rest of us. If you're so concerned about saving bandwidth that a few pixels of sig are unacceptable, why do you allow all the stupid crap that goes on in Real Life, C&C, T-dome, and other useless areas? It's hypocritical BS.
The SSB forum had a sense of community for years. All the old members knew each other, and we welcomed newbs, gave them tips, had discussions. There was a lot of crap in there too, I'll admit, but the good members rarely participated in it. You guys decided that the rules were more important than a good time, which is what this site was created for, and wrecked that. You're now justifying your actions by insulting people. Honestly? I'm not impressed.

[VashTheStampede]

Easy, you justified it so you could put that attempt at a return-fire at the bottom to begin with. Otherwise, your post would really have no point other than stating what has been already made obvious.

Plus, I found it entertaining. S-mods are supposed to be 'better' than the members, and setting the standard.

What ARE you going on about?

Is this spam? It smells like spam.

But Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, this is a videogame site.

Please don't take the name of the Tapdancing Lord in vain.

Nice sig. Glad to see an unbiased post.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Crazy couldn't even follow the proper rules for using glow.

[beefbutcher88]

It's a friggin sig. What's it got to do with my point? It's probably true, btw, but whatever.

[PyroFox]

Now, you're not one to sink to that kind of level in the midst of a debate, now are you? ...oh wait.

See above post.

A meat grinder? Hey yeah! Now THERE'S a reasonable reaction. You say I'm missing your point, but slappy, you're missing the ONLY point.

Kind of hard to miss my own point, squelcher.

The only way a moderator can do an effective job is if they KNOW the rules, and more importantly, if they ADHERE to the rules. Judging by the fact that Crazy had had his signature nuked TWICE, judging by the fact that several regulars of his forums had signatures WAY over the limit, he clearly did not even know there WAS a rule against sig height. A few of the signatures I killed weren't "one or two pixels" they were big mother f*cking signatures that it would take a blind guy to miss. Not to mention (as I said) the several other annoyances and infractions we found amongst the rubble of the Super Smash Brothers forum, he definitley deserved to be demodded.

We're talking about CrAzY's sig. Not the, as you like to put, 'big mother f*cking signatures'.

GameWinners forums have a member population of over 80,000, and only about 120 mods to govern them. Do you have any idea how much servers cost? How much bandwidth costs? The rules against signature violations were put in place to prevent the forums crashing on a regular basis. I'd love to see you in here bitching if we took away the rules, and you COULDN'T POST ANYWAY BECAUSE THE FORUMS WERE NEVER ONLINE.

I work with intelligence servers daily, not to mention defending the freedom of speech for you to even post this crap. Yes, I know about servers and bandwidth. I never said CrAzY was right for having an over sig. I said the analness here sucks. Then I preceded to shift from that subject and just express my opinion that the standards suck. Of course I understand why they are there. I'm also allowed to say they suck.


It's a GOD DAMN FORUM! If anyone knows about my history with the GTA forum, they'd know that I more than most know all about loyalty to a forum. But there comes a time when you have to slap yourself in the face and realize "hey, sh*t, it's just a forum." It's your turn, buddy. Your world isn't going to come to an end if Linux Pingu can't tell you how to unlock the ultra secret mega sword in the fifth to last level while using the bald headed version of Princess Peach

It's not the forum, it's the community. And how most of us aren't going to like change.

What I have something against is a mod who has ONE forum, and doesn't even take care of it the way the guidelines are set to do. There are a LOT of mods who work their asses off for this forum, and someone like Crazy skates by on nothing. I don't even know him, I'm sure he's a nice guy, I'm sure he knows Super Smash Brothers, but he's a lousy mod, and shouldn't be one.

Yeah, but you guys really make it sound like you got something personal against him.

Vash is an Admin. His only job is to keep me in check.

...No comment.

[VashTheStampede]

...not to mention defending the freedom of speech for you to even post this crap.

And oh, the humility! :link:

Yeah, but you guys really make it sound like you got something personal against him.

I heard he doesn't support the troops and I just could NOT let that stand!

[PyroFox]

What ARE you going on about?

Is this spam? It smells like spam.

Translation: I didn't have anything better to say, because I knew he was right.

And it was, technically, about s-mods and their role, which is on-topic for what we are discussing.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that Crazy couldn't even follow the proper rules for using glow.

And so when was this? I saw him blam plenty a user for glow strength, and I've never seen him use glow past limit.

And oh, the humility!

I heard he doesn't support the troops and I just could NOT let that stand!

Someone's scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[Crazy Jamie]

Yeah, but you guys really make it sound like you got something personal against him.
You really need to realise that we don't. He broke the very rules that he is there to enforce, as well as there being a handful of other legitimate reasons for him to be demodded that just happened to be discovered after the act itself. But that doesn't make them any less valid. The guy was not fit to be a moderator on this site. So he isn't anymore. It really is as simple as that.

[VashTheStampede]

Translation: I didn't have anything better to say, because I knew he was right.

No, I quite literally had no idea what you were going on about.

And so when was this? I saw him blam plenty a user for glow strength, and I've never seen him use glow past limit.

So he was a hypocrite too? Niiiice.

I'd link you up, but the new moderators are too good, apparently. :(

Someone's scraping the bottom of the barrel.

What barrel? I thought it was quite obvious that I was just blowing you off! You can't scrape a blowing off barrel!

[beefbutcher88]

I don't understand what you guys are trying to prove. If the mods are there to run the forum, who are they running it for?
Us, you brainless dumbfcuks
We, the patrons of the SSB forum, are the ones who you're doing all this for. So why are you doing nothing but not treating what we say with respect and just ignoring every valid point one of us makes?

[VashTheStampede]

I don't understand what you guys are trying to prove. If the mods are there to run the forum, who are they running it for?
Us, you brainless dumbfcuks
We, the patrons of the SSB forum, are the ones who you're doing all this for. So why are you doing nothing but not treating what we say with respect and just ignoring every valid point one of us makes?

Warning for flaming.

Glad to see you have such a grasp of what makes a good moderator.

[PyroFox]

No, I quite literally had no idea what you were going on about.

Right. I believe you.



So he was a hypocrite too? Niiiice.

I'd link you up, but the new moderators are too good, apparently. :(

Too good? They've been at the SSB forum for like, one day!


What barrel? I thought it was quite obvious that I was just blowing you off! You can't scrape a blowing off barrel!

You weren't blowing me off. It is quite obvious, however, that you were just being a flat-out d*ck. But I guess you can do that, 'cause you're an s-mod. However, if I offended you like that, you can just warn me and it's all good.

[beefbutcher88]

The example you guys have set so far has been breathtaking, I must say. Please, enlighten me as to what makes a good moderator? Is it blatantly ignoring what the people in your forum say, or is it selecting the least relevant parts of a post to make a witty reply to? You're the leadership, so I know I can entrust such difficult questions to you.

[VashTheStampede]

You weren't blowing me off. It is quite obvious, however, that you were just being a flat-out d*ck.

Warning for flaming.

Come on, guys. Honestly.

[beefbutcher88]

You've done your job as a mod and have punished us for rule breaking. Good work. But you haven't done your job as a human being and backed up your actions when they were questioned. I'm still waiting.

[PyroFox]

You weren't blowing me off. It is quite obvious, however, that you were just being a flat-out d*ck. But I guess you can do that, 'cause you're an s-mod. However, if I offended you like that, you can just warn me and it's all good.


Warning for flaming.

Whoo!

(I edited that before your post, BTW.)

[VashTheStampede]

Nice edit. :^:

[Crazy Jamie]

We, the patrons of the SSB forum, are the ones who you're doing all this for. So why are you doing nothing but not treating what we say with respect and just ignoring every valid point one of us makes?
Incorrect. The forum wide rules are there for the benefit of all members. Moderators can exercise a certain amount of discretion in their forums about how harshly they enforce the rules. However, there are certain fundamental rules, such as the signature rules, which are non negotiable and apply in every forum without exception. Moderators must follow and enforce those rules continually forum wide, in order to keep the rule system consistent. As much as the members of a particular forum may like it, having a moderator disobeying rules in that forum is not beneficial to the site as a whole on principle and in practice.

[beefbutcher88]

This is a mockery. You've been asked a whole bunch of questions you quite clearly have no answer to, and all this time you just sit here making SPAM posts like "Nice edit". I know the rules too, and that seems to me like a worthless post. I'm still waiting for answers to my previous posts.

[PyroFox]

Nice edit. :^:

(I edited that before your post, BTW.)

Thanks.

[beefbutcher88]

EDIT: I appreciate Jamie's ability to actually answer a question. While that's the policy right now, is it necessarily a good one? You guys have said that the mods are overworked as it is, and yet you seem to treat them like they're awfully dispensable.

[Crazy Jamie]

This is a mockery. You've been asked a whole bunch of questions you quite clearly have no answer to, and all this time you just sit here making SPAM posts like "Nice edit". I know the rules too, and that seems to me like a worthless post. I'm still waiting for answers to my previous posts.Well I've already given you one answer. If you want to list or highlight the other questions you want answered then do so and I'll answer those as well. As entertaining as the point scoring is in situations like this, it's not my style. So try me.

EDIT:

While that's the policy right now, is it necessarily a good one? You guys have said that the mods are overworked as it is, and yet you seem to treat them like they're awfully dispensable. Yes, I do think it is a good one. I wouldn't suggest that the moderators are overworked. Moderators on this site are always nominated for a single forum. They then have the option of picking up more forums at certain points if they wish. If a moderator can't handle a certain number of forums, they should have the judgement to restrict the number they moderate, or drop some forums if need be. There are always a number of modless forums on this site, which are looked over by the super moderators.

We do not need more moderators on this site per se, though I do think we always need more good moderators. But you can't increase quantity and sacrifice quality. There has to be a balance. The image of the moderating team on this site is important if we are to have a good relationship with the members, which we do want believe it or not. Perhaps the most fundamental part of maintaining that image is to not have moderators that break the rules that they enforce. Hence why losing once moderator to uphold that standard is perfectly justified.

[Schteve]

I fail to see how a change in moderators should disrupt any of the good old fashioned hearty fun that goes on in there. No one is going to stop you from having your discussions, and Crazy is still welcome to post there. The only thing Linux and I need to do is enforce the rules, and if anything that should only make for a healthier social environment. I'm not here to ruin your fun or anything, so just follow the basic rules and things will run fine.



Oh, and being s-mods, aren't you supposed to be corrective and tutorive towards the regular mods, and trying to better the site as a whole...instead of saying they suck?That was the aim of the first warning he received. However, just because they are in positions of leadership does not mean they lose their voices of opinion. Surely they should be as free to express their personal views as you are.



I realize that many of you enjoy the power high you get when you warn someone, demod them or ban them. That's good for you. I hope you enjoy it.Uh, I'm pretty sure I speak for most of the mods when I say it's no picnic. I'd love for members to be perfect rule-abiding denizens of the Internet, 'cause you know, taking the time to message members I don't even know with rule infractions and log warnings sure is buckets of fun.

Oh man, saying that makes me want a Mr. Bucket. :(

[PyroFox]

This is a mockery. You've been asked a whole bunch of questions you quite clearly have no answer to, and all this time you just sit here making SPAM posts like "Nice edit". I know the rules too, and that seems to me like a worthless post. I'm still waiting for answers to my previous posts.

They're not going to give you straight answers, beef. They don't feel like they need to.

[Ben]

Haha... You've got to be sh*tting me...

It's a pity that usernotes only came around sometime in 2004, because there've been several times that CrAzY! has been targetted for not pulling his weight in a forum. I think it was 2003 that him and another moderator were doing absolutely nothing in The Voting Booth and poj was asking for him to be removed if he didn't pull his socks up. I'm pretty sure he's skirted by the inactivity demods several times since then, too.

Well, I didn't even know that the image size rule was even in place. I didn't even realize that my image was really that big. What's bad is that I didn't even get a warning. I would think fellow mods would warn me first, or at least give me some explanation for why I was demodded.CrAzY! did not even KNOW there were signature rules. He didn't care to read the forum rules at any point during the year that signature images have been turned on, because it blatantly stated the restrictions on filesize, height, and tells you to make damn sure your signature's correct before you put it in your signature because you're not going to get a warning to remove it first.

I have no f*cking sympathy for someone who does not even know the rules that he's supposed to be enforcing.

He was a bad moderator.

[Aphrodite]

I don't understand what you guys are trying to prove. If the mods are there to run the forum, who are they running it for?
Us, you brainless dumbfcuks
We, the patrons of the SSB forum, are the ones who you're doing all this for. So why are you doing nothing but not treating what we say with respect and just ignoring every valid point one of us makes?

The members of that forum are a problem.

It is a shameless trolling pit that got away with it because of a horrible moderator.

Now you need to follow the rules like everyone else, and everyone is getting testy.

You're straight out insulting people, you haven't earned anyone's respect.

[PyroFox]

I fail to see how a change in moderators should disrupt any of the goold old fashioned hearty fun that goes on in there. No one is going to stop you from having your discussions, and Crazy is still welcome to post there. The only thing Linux and I need to do is enforce the rules, and if anything that should only make for a healthier social environment. I'm not here to ruin your fun or anything, so just follow the basic rules and things will run fine.



That was the aim of the first warning he received. However, just because they are in positions of leadership does not mean they lose their voices of opinion. Surely they should be as free to express their personal views as you are.



Uh, I'm pretty sure I speak for most of the mods when I say it's no picnic. I'd love for members to be perfect rule-abiding denizens of the Internet, 'cause you know, taking the time to message members I don't even know with rule infractions and log warnings sure is buckets of fun.

Oh man, saying that makes me want a Mr. Bucket. :(


See, this person is being a HELP. He's not being an *ss.

The only thing I was really driving home is that it sucks not having the same mod now, and change sucks. I'm sure people will adjust accordingly, but all I'm saying is that it's not going to be fun.

This person, I believe, is going to make an okay mod. I don't know enough about the other to pass judgement.


And Blind, I thought PMs were inadmissable when it came to disputes? Used to be that way, anyway...don't know about now, so much has changed. Not calling anyone out or anything, I just seriously want to know.

[VashTheStampede]

We have rules at this site. Crazy could not be bothered to follow them. I'm not going to bend the rules because a couple of members (who apparently have no respect for those rules) complained.

I didn't know anything about Crazy before this incident (nothing that stuck with me, I should say), but the only FACTS that I've heard since haven't spoken well in his favor, and do even less to make me care that we've lost his services.

I'm sorry that someone that you obviously liked and respected was demodded. That's unfortunate. However, you must realize that there must be consequences for actions, especially for those in positions of power. PyroFox likes to talk about all the politics here at this site. Well, consider the flipside of this discussion. Let's say Crazy is given just one more chance. Then you have members claiming that he's given special treatment.

I apologize for my behavior in this thread. I see situations like this almost every day, and you get desensitized to these lose/lose situations.

Realize that nothing you can say is going to change the fact that he was (rightfully) demodded. He was given a warning, and he chose to not take it to heart. Examples must be made.

[Ben]

And Blind, I thought PMs were inadmissable when it came to disputes? Used to be that way, anyway...don't know about now, so much has changed. Not calling anyone out or anything, I just seriously want to know.If it was actually being used to condemn him, then I probably wouldn't bring it up, but it just goes to further the point that the site isn't going to cry from cutting him lose. I mean, it's not like his demodding is in question as all three of the admins agreed on it (within 6 minutes, infact. We deserve cupcakes.)

Plus being an admin, and any PM evidence I bring out would somewhat automatically be considered legitimate. That's the only reason that PM's weren't viable evidence in the past, because they could be falsified.

[Aphrodite]

See, this person is being a HELP. He's not being an *ss.

Perhaps because your opening post didn't specifically cite him as a corrupt, political ass-kissing suckup.

[VashTheStampede]

If it was actually being used to condemn him, then I probably wouldn't bring it up, but it just goes to further the point that the site isn't going to cry from cutting him lose. I mean, it's not like his demodding is in question as all three of the admins agreed on it (within 6 minutes, infact. We deserve cupcakes.)

And for the record, this was the first I recall hearing of any PMs.

The demodding went like this: "Hey, this guy had another sig violation, isn't that a demod?"
"Yes, it is."
"Uh huh."

It was hardly a conspiracy.

[beefbutcher88]

If you're so concerned about saving bandwidth that a few pixels of sig are unacceptable, why do you allow all the stupid crap that goes on in Real Life, C&C, T-dome, and other useless areas? It's hypocritical BS.
You can't honestly say that GW is run like a well-oiled machine. I got out of hand with my insult, and I'm sorry, but Vash was really ticking me off by not giving a straight answer to anything and pretty much just dancing around commenting on the least important parts of posts, just for the sake of prolonging argument. That was trolling if I've ever seen it.

And Aphrodite, I began straight out insulting people after seeing valuable points ignored and after being treated like a fool, without justification.

[PyroFox]

No one would have shouted out at special treatment if no one had said anything about it to begin with. You could have just sent him a nastygram through PM saying he needs to straighten up.

Now, maybe it's just me, cause the only side I saw of Crazy was the SSB forum side. And he wasn't doing a horrible job there.

But WTF ever. It's not up to me to run the site, that's what you're here for. I just think that this individual situation could have been handled better. It's not a blam on any particular person, I just really think it could have been handled better in general.

And the apology's accepted. I think we all got rash, but that's gonna happen when you take a forum that's been sitting for 5 years and shake it up, regardless of who was at fault.

[Crazy Jamie]

And Blind, I thought PMs were inadmissable when it came to disputes?They can't be used as evidence in Court cases. And their reliability in general matters where they could be considered evidence is a problem. However, I'd certainly trust an administrator in a situation like this to not make up or manipulate a PM he received when quoting it.

Also, copied out for beefbutcher in case he misses my previous edit from this fast moving topic:

While that's the policy right now, is it necessarily a good one? You guys have said that the mods are overworked as it is, and yet you seem to treat them like they're awfully dispensable.

Yes, I do think it is a good one. I wouldn't suggest that the moderators are overworked. Moderators on this site are always nominated for a single forum. They then have the option of picking up more forums at certain points if they wish. If a moderator can't handle a certain number of forums, they should have the judgement to restrict the number they moderate, or drop some forums if need be. There are always a number of modless forums on this site, which are looked over by the super moderators.

We do not need more moderators on this site per se, though I do think we always need more good moderators. But you can't increase quantity and sacrifice quality. There has to be a balance. The image of the moderating team on this site is important if we are to have a good relationship with the members, which we do want believe it or not. Perhaps the most fundamental part of maintaining that image is to not have moderators that break the rules that they enforce. Hence why losing once moderator to uphold that standard is perfectly justified.

[Ben]

And for the record, this was the first I recall hearing of any PMs.

The demodding went like this: "Hey, this guy had another sig violation, isn't that a demod?"
"Yes, it is."
"Uh huh."

It was hardly a conspiracy.
That's because the PM's came after he'd been demodded, when CrAzY! PM'ed me asking what the hell was going on.

Which, again, proves his worth as a moderator because he didn't think to check his usernotes. :rolleyes:

[PyroFox]

Perhaps because your opening post didn't specifically cite him as a corrupt, political ass-kissing suckup.

No. Because he didn't come in here using mod powers to justify himself, and he didn't be a d*ck.

He laid out some things for us, and in all actuality, he reminded me of the fact that CrAzY will in fact still be there, and isn't banned. I knew, but I wasn't thinking of it.

Well that is, if he doesn't leave because he feels like he got screwed.

[VashTheStampede]

No one would have shouted out at special treatment if no one had said anything about it to begin with. You could have just sent him a nastygram through PM saying he needs to straighten up.

So more backdoor political ass-saving is the answer? I have to disagree.

Now, maybe it's just me, cause the only side I saw of Crazy was the SSB forum side. And he wasn't doing a horrible job there.

I guess that's a matter of opinion, but the facts I'm seeing say otherwise.

And the apology's accepted. I think we all got rash, but that's gonna happen when you take a forum that's been sitting for 5 years and shake it up, regardless of who was at fault.

This is true.

[Aphrodite]

And Aphrodite, I began straight out insulting people after seeing valuable points ignored and after being treated like a fool, without justification.

He's not above the rules.

That's the justification.

To you, he's somewhat special. To them, he's just like everybody else. Regardless of the person, regardless of the forum, and regardless of the situation, the set of rules governing such a thing, which were set long before this event ever happened, say this is what happens. He's done nothing to deserve a softer hand, much the opposite in fact.

[PyroFox]

They can't be used as evidence in Court cases. And their reliability in general matters where they could be considered evidence is a problem. However, I'd certainly trust an administrator in a situation like this to not make up or manipulate a PM he received when quoting it.

I'm sorry, but I don't care if he's Jesus, I'm not trusting anything that can't be proven. That's not a blam, it's just the way I am. But thanks for the info.



So more backdoor political ass-saving is the answer? I have to disagree.
Dude it's not ass-saving, it's just cutting someone a break...but from what you've laid out, I guess CrAzY was too crappy of a mod to be given another break...I just find that hard to believe. Just me. He's been nothing but good to the SSB forum.


I guess that's a matter of opinion, but the facts I'm seeing say otherwise.

Well, like I just said. But I'm still allowed to b*tch about it, regardless of the fact that it wont change anything.

[beefbutcher88]

Aphrodite, I wasn't talking about Crazy, I was talking about myself. I made a whole bunch of posts asking legitimate questions and they were ignored, except for at one point where Vash decided to comment on my "Jesus H Tapdancing Christ" statement, which was far and away the least relevant part of my post.

[VashTheStampede]

Dude it's not ass-saving, it's just cutting someone a break...

Semantics.

...but from what you've laid out, I guess CrAzY was too crappy of a mod to be given another break...I just find that hard to believe. Just me. He's been nothing but good to the SSB forum.

Maybe too good. :link:

[PyroFox]

Not really semantics. You can't tell me you've never cut someone a break before, whether it be on this site or IRL.

You know, maybe it was just because the forum was ran that way so long that we grew accustomed to it. That being the case, my question to you is, why wasn't he corrected sooner?

[Ben]

Not really semantics. You can't tell me you've never cut someone a break before, whether it be on this site or IRL.

You know, maybe it was just because the forum was ran that way so long that we grew accustomed to it. That being the case, my question to you is, why wasn't he corrected sooner?
Why cut CrAzY! any slack? Cardinal was demodded for exactly the same thing, two signature removals. There've been other moderators who've been axed for exactly the same thing, although I can't remember their names off the top of my head. I was going to say Daron Malakian but he was demodded for inactivity after having 2 signature nukes so either way.

And he "wasn't corrected sooner" because it wasn't spotted sooner. Despite what you might think, the upper-staff can't read every single thread in every single forum every day. Gamewinners relies heavily on the moderators to report infractions to the admins, and the members to report infractions to the moderators. So ultimately, I blame you.

[Nicodemus]

You know, maybe it was just because the forum was ran that way so long that we grew accustomed to it. That being the case, my question to you is, why wasn't he corrected sooner?
Excellent point.

BG, Isis, Vash.. why the hell aren't the three of you watching over what all of us 120+ mods are doing in every single one of the dozens of forums and thousands of threads here? You guys have got some f*cking explaining to do..

THE DE-ADMIN TRIFECTA IS IMMINENT!

[VashTheStampede]

So ultimately, I blame you.

Oh god that is f*cking classic.

Man, I'm going through the SSB forum and finding ALL SORTS of spam and trolling that he let go.

Lots of that spam seems to come from PyroFox. Niiiice.

[PyroFox]

So ultimately, I blame you.

Yeah, blame the rest of the SSB forum too.

And I don't believe the topic required backup.

But wait...isn't that the s-mod job, to keep the mods in line? Then they should be watching.

Lots of that spam seems to come from PyroFox. Niiiice.

You act like I'm the only person. Lots of spam in this topic seemed to come from me and you too. It's not a secret.

[Aphrodite]

But wait...isn't that the s-mod job, to keep the mods in line? Then they should be watching.

No, they're basically janitors. But, like...super janitors!

[Ben]

Oh god that is f*cking classic.

Man, I'm going through the SSB forum and finding ALL SORTS of spam and trolling that he let go.

Lots of that spam seems to come from PyroFox. Niiiice.
Oh, it's okay, Vash. Brig's sitting here going through the mod forum finding all the crap that CrAzY! has been called on in the past forever. :)

[Coleman]

That being the case, my question to you is, why wasn't he corrected sooner?As Nicodemus just so kindly pointed out, there's no way in hell three sMods and three admins can watch over everything that happens EVERYWHERE at GameWinners. That's why we have mods. Mods we're supposed to trust. Mods we rely on to do their jobs. Crazy was not doing his six ways from Sunday. Once it was mentioned that he was possibly slipping, it was investigated and corrected. That's the best we can hope for. You, the members, reporting to us if a moderator isn't doing his or her job.

This was one of those cases.

You can bitch, and whine, and flame all you want. Crazy was a crappy moderator. He wasn't doing ANYTHING in that forum that is appropriate for a moderator to be doing, and he finally got what was coming. This is no bearing on what kind of person he is, I don't know him, I don't care. But when it comes to being a moderator, he dropped the f*cking ball, it's as simple as that.

Your best bet is to just shut the f*ck up, give REAL mods their due chance, and stop whining. It's a forum. It's not going to come to a screeching hault becuase Crazy isn't the mod anymore. If he's as loyal to you guys as you say, he'll stick around and continue to post. The mods will be there to make sure people don't step out of line.

Simple. As. That.

(And damn you Vash for handing out the warnings, damn you in the ear.)

Also, I hate when a thread is moving this fast and I end up getting in a post ten posts late. I hate all of you.

(Ten bucks says this post doesn't get auto-merged becuase someone slips one in.)

[PyroFox]

I am giving the mods a chance. I'm talking to one of them now.

And I'm not even debating anymore that CrAzY was a bad moderator, I have no opinion on it now, because apparently he had some of these big ass issues that none of us at the forum knew about, or were just too accustomed to. To be quite honest, that sig violation was the first action I have ever seen taken against him, so it was a little hard for me to take that he was getting kicked out for it.

And Cole, I don't think telling people to shut the f*ck up is striving to be a good member-friendly s-mod. Now, if you suggested that I lie the subject to rest because it's poinless to argue anymore, I could be a bit more inclined.

A good part of the leadership issues at GameWinners is that the high ups think they are too good to take suggestions, or even LISTEN to suggestions from members.

[Schteve]

Which, again, proves his worth as a moderator because he didn't think to check his usernotes. :rolleyes:Give him some credit; he did check them. Granted that was after I suggested he look there following his demodding....



And I'm not even debating anymore that CrAzY was a bad moderator, I have no opinion on it now, because apparently he had some of these big ass issues that none of us at the forum knew about, or were just too accustomed to. To be quite honest, that sig violation was the first action I have ever seen taken against him, so it was a little hard for me to take that he was getting kicked out for it.I hope you understand where they are coming from. It's kind of useless to have people enforcing rules which they don't even follow themselves (and apparently don't even know about). The other things mentioned weren't even discovered until after he was demodded, and frankly they don't make the decision any more regretable.

[VashTheStampede]

A good part of the leadership issues at GameWinners is that the high ups think they are too good to take suggestions, or even LISTEN to suggestions from members.

A good part of the membership issues at GameWinners is that the members frequently mix their "suggestions" with a nice dose of vitriolic criticism and are then STUNNED to find themselves marginalized.

If you have a legitimate suggestion, feel free to send PMs to the admins, or even post in one of our forums.

It will then be summarily ignored considered. :link:

see, that there's a joke

[PyroFox]

The other things mentioned weren't even discovered until after he was demodded, and frankly they don't make the decision any more regretable.

Yeah, which is why we were all like, 'WTF'. And it sucks we had to find out this way, but oh well. Life goes on.

[Coleman]

And Cole, I don't think telling people to shut the f*ck up is striving to be a good member-friendly s-mod. Now, if you suggested that I lie the subject to rest because it's poinless to argue anymore, I could be a bit more inclined.I'm only friendly when I'm treated with at least a little respect. And considering how little I got from you in this thread, you should be glad that's all I said.

[PyroFox]

A good part of the membership issues at GameWinners is that the members frequently mix their "suggestions" with a nice dose of vitriolic criticism and are then STUNNED to find themselves marginalized.

If you have a legitimate suggestion, feel free to send PMs to the admins, or even post in one of our forums.

It will then be summarily ignored considered. :link:

see, that there's a joke

No, man. No joke. How many of them are actually sanity-checked, and actually taken into consideration?



I'm only friendly when I'm treated with at least a little respect. And considering how little I got from you in this thread, you should be glad that's all I said.

Yeah, well, what do you want? You pretty much pissed on me. Do you want me to be your friend? Respect works both ways.

[VashTheStampede]

No, man. No joke. How many of them are actually sanity-checked, and actually taken into consideration?

Considering literally half of the first page of the Admin forum are threads titled "Suggestion from __________", lined up one right after the other, I'd say a good number.

Even if I get a suggestion that I think is f*cking retarded, I'll usually mention it to someone else to make sure I'm not crazy.

Knowing my fellow admins, I feel safe in assuring you that every suggestion they get is taken with due respect as well.

[Coleman]

Yeah, well, what do you want? You pretty much pissed on me. Do you want me to be your friend? Respect works both ways.Excuse me? Go check the rest of the thread, sport. You came in here laying down the bullsh*t, i responded.

[Isis]

No, man. No joke. How many of them are actually sanity-checked, and actually taken into consideration?

You mean like images in signatures, posting the mod votes in forums so we can see how people feel about them, starting to post the bans and stuff in this forum, trying turning on editing, having our own forums in addition to the suggestions forum so people can ask stuff, putting the forum wide rules at the top of every forum so they are easy to see, having the questions forum and the testing grounds, rearranging Real Life so stuff is better/easier to find?

Like Vash said, I think that if you'll PM one of us, post in the Questions forum, or post in one of our forums we actually will listen to you - providing the statement doesn't start off with "why haven't you morons done ____" as that's basic communication skills for putting someone on the offensive. We're constantly trying to help the forums for the better of the majority. Its the people that try to fit through any loopholes and our bending over backwards to seem fair that causes us to have a lot more problems.

[PyroFox]

Then I have a few suggestions to keep issues like this from happening again.

At least three mods per forum. Crazy was a lone mod for a good while, and if maybe he had another mod, the other one could have coached him and kept him in check.

And maybe it's just me, but there's a real shortage of s-mods. You said 120+ mods, and only a handful of s-mods. That's not enough to cover 120 mods, even if they ARE at the comp all day, every day. S-mods have lives too, but I still do think that the amount of time Crazy went running the forum in a bad manner is ridiculous. It wouldn't hurt for the s-mods to check up on the forums the mods run randomly.


I know that's probably hard to attain, and for all I know, that stuff is already being worked. Just my input, though. TRYING to be helpful, anyway...because in the past 3 hours, I don't think any of us have been very helpful.

Yeah, myself included. There, I said it.

Excuse me? Go check the rest of the thread, sport. You came in here laying down the bullsh*t, i responded.

I never said I was perfect either. We all got pissy. It happens. It's Monday.


And yeah, Isis. In a non-intrusive manner, I just meant suggestions to better the forum in general.

[Coleman]

At least three mods per forum. Crazy was a lone mod for a good while, and if maybe he had another mod, the other one could have coached him and kept him in check.Some forums don't need three mods. And plenty of mods are good enough to not need co-mods.

And maybe it's just me, but there's a real shortage of s-mods. You said 120+ mods, and only a handful of s-mods. That's not enough to cover 120 mods, even if they ARE at the comp all day, every day. S-mods have lives too, but I still do think that the amount of time Crazy went running the forum in a bad manner is ridiculous. It wouldn't hurt for the s-mods to check up on the forums the mods run randomly.Trust me, three sMods is enough. Our job is not to do everything, are job is to enforce that which the regular mods can not. And in events of complaints, deal with moderators where appropriate. If more sMods get added, the position becomes less official, and therefore irrelevant.

You're basically saying that mods shouldn't be held accountable if they suck at their job, which, conveniently enough, shines a good light on your buddy, but it's total bullsh*t. These mods are THERE to enforce the rules, to spread out the GW administration. We shouldn't HAVE to watch them over their shoulder. We are supposed to trust that they do their job. And when theY DON'T, that's when we step in.

[Isis]

Then I have a few suggestions to keep issues like this from happening again.

At least three mods per forum. Crazy was a lone mod for a good while, and if maybe he had another mod, the other one could have coached him and kept him in check.
That would be nice in theory to have a type of checks and balances system, but we don't have enough mods to go around as it is. We have a lot of unmodded forums that we can't get people to pick up or find anyone that would be decent enough to mod it. Plus the number of mods we have that don't do jack now and are just sitting with their names on top of the forums is astounding. I'd be afraid that would lead to just more that are mod in name only.


And maybe it's just me, but there's a real shortage of s-mods. You said 120+ mods, and only a handful of s-mods. That's not enough to cover 120 mods, even if they ARE at the comp all day, every day. S-mods have lives too, but I still do think that the amount of time Crazy went running the forum in a bad manner is ridiculous. It wouldn't hurt for the s-mods to check up on the forums the mods run randomly.

Technically we don't need smods for that. Anyone (admin, smod, mod, member) can peek into a forum and see if stuff is going on - which is really what we mostly rely on now. If we have smods who only police the mods then you also get into the realm of seeming like a total dictatorship where we're not trusting our mods and constantly looking over their shoulders, and really that's just not cool for morale. Yes, we should do random checks and we've tried it before it just never worked out well because we just don't have the time to do it regularly. Plus its a nice happy flowery theory that we should be able to trust the mods.

[PyroFox]

Some forums don't need three mods. And plenty of mods are good enough to not need co-mods.

Yeah, but what about the ones that aren't good enough, like Crazy?

Trust me, three sMods is enough. Our job is not to do everything, are job is to enforce that which the regular mods can not. And in events of complaints, deal with moderators where appropriate. If more sMods get added, the position becomes less official, and therefore irrelevant.

You're basically saying that mods shouldn't be held accountable if they suck at their job, which, conveniently enough, shines a good light on your buddy, but it's total bullsh*t. These mods are THERE to enforce the rules, to spread out the GW administration. We shouldn't HAVE to watch them over their shoulder. We are supposed to trust that they do their job. And when theY DON'T, that's when we step in.

I never said they shouldn't be accountable. If you haven't noticed, I stopped shining a light on him ever since all his faults were laid out.

And if you're supposed to trust them to do their job, and we have episodes like this, I say you need to set harsher selection criteria for mods. I know I just said three per forum would be good, but going back to what was said - if the mods were more trustable, there wouldn't be a need for that many.

[Ben]

Yeah, but what about the ones that aren't good enough, like Crazy?Then the moderator should be able to admit that they don't have the capabilities to handle a forum and ask for help. We even have a moderator testing forum as a sub-forum of the moderator forum, in which anyone who's unsure how to do something (you'd be suprised how many moderators don't understand the new splitting procedure) can get help and practice themselves.

It's completely different when someone outright refuses to read and understand the rules that are clearly set out for everyone to see, though.

[PyroFox]

Eh.

Just find it hard to take that Crazy was really doing that bad of a job. Don't really notice it when it's been that way for so long...but I guess he was.



That's all I have. Sucks it had to blow up into a big argument, I can think of better ways to spend three hours of my night. But that's just the way sh*t rolls sometimes. Yeah, I didn't make any good arguing, neither did those who kept it going. I'm willing to put it past me if others are though.



Good day, to all of you. Or night. Whatever.

[Ants!]

I haven't been at my computer all evening, so I missed most of this. Let me get in a few points/questions real quick (except I'll try to be a little nicer about it than my two predecessors were). And yes, I did read all of the 85 posts before this one, but some of these points/questions were not addressed as it went off-topic and blew up into a big arguement, or were never brought up at all:

Well, considering that it was two sig violations over a span of five years, if the first one happened far enough off in the past, then should it not count towards a banning? And as for allowing others to have extremely large sigs, how long did he let them keep it without doing anything about it? Because you Smods seem pretty quick to nuke sigs, and it could be that you guys just kept beating him to it. Besides, sigs are not something that are confined to one forum. They follow you around and the same sig is present in every post they make, regardless of which forum they posted in. If you repremand one mod for this, then wouldn't you have to do the same to every mod of every forum that those users had ever posted in?

Please put aside your personal distastes for him and reconsider letting him mod the Smash Brothers forum. He deserves another shot, because he helped keep that forum from becoming completely dead in the 5 years since there was even a new game in the series. He only modded that one forum, and was it really such a wreck that you have to take his modship of it away, even though all of the people who post there probably want him back? If he wasn't aware of what you were faulting him on before, he's certainly aware of it now, so what harm could it do to give him one final chance?

[VashTheStampede]

1. Both violations were within the last year. The previous was October.

2. There was no personal dislike involved at all. That was conjecture.

3. There is a preview button for sigs. There should NEVER be a situation where one could claim the S-Mods were too trigger happy.

4. The harm would be that Crazy is not the first mod to be let go for this, and you'd be SHAKING UP THE WHOLE SYSTEM, MAN!!!

[Isis]

Well, considering that it was two sig violations over a span of five years, if the first one happened far enough off in the past, then should it not count towards a banning?

It was 2 sig violations in approximately 7 months. I don't understand what you mean about a banning as no one has been banned here.

And as for allowing others to have extremely large sigs, how long did he let them keep it without doing anything about it? Because you Smods seem pretty quick to nuke sigs, and it could be that you guys just kept beating him to it. Besides, sigs are not something that are confined to one forum. They follow you around and the same sig is present in every post they make, regardless of which forum they posted in. If you repremand one mod for this, then wouldn't you have to do the same to every mod of every forum that those users had ever posted in?
Like it says in the forum wide rules, image signatures are immediately deleted with no warning. We don't need to let them sit and suck up server juice. So yes, we are all "quick" to remove them. But us finding many members in the SSB forum with huge sigs and trolling/flaming galore is just a side note that just adds to the pattern of him being inactive (with logged complaints in the mod forum), not splitting topics, calling new members idiots (which totally defies the "happy forum" argument), etc. He didn't follow the signature rules himself. These same sig rules that are posted in several different places, plus a thread in the mod forum stating that mods would be demodded if they had 2 sig warnings. He didn't know there were sig rules according to a PM he sent Blind Guardian. He didn't know to check his own usernotes (forum wide announcement, in the forum wide rules, and in multiple mod newsletters). That to me paints a picture of someone who has a forum they treat as their own domain and doesn't actually contribute to the site and/or keep up with what is going on around the forums.


Please put aside your personal distastes for him and reconsider letting him mod the Smash Brothers forum. He deserves another shot, because he helped keep that forum from becoming completely dead in the 5 years since there was even a new game in the series. He only modded that one forum, and was it really such a wreck that you have to take his modship of it away, even though all of the people who post there probably want him back? If he wasn't aware of what you were faulting him on before, he's certainly aware of it now, so what harm could it do to give him one final chance?
You've completely missed the fact that everyone has said they don't have any personal feelings towards him. No one dislikes him personally, just how he's handled things and disregarded others. When there are 119 other mods who are able to follow the signature rules and such, why should he get a special consideration? I know that sounds harsh, but there's not a whole lot more ways we could shove the sig rules down people's throat. There is no "I didn't know" excuse if you were paying attention to anything going on. He could probably get another shot at modding in a few months with a recommendation. I don't exactly see him posting here asking for another chance, though.

[Ants!]

Thanks for answering my questions, guys. I didn't know how long ago the first warning was, which was why I asked because I wanted to make sure that was considered. I didn't mean to say banning, Isis. Force of habit I guess.

I still think that it wouldn't hurt anything or anyone to give Crazy one final chance, but you are the admins and not I, and your minds are made up. I'm not going to ignorantly call you guys dictators or anything, but I still think it was a bit harsh. That's just my opinion, though, and I put all of my arguments in my last post and they have all been addressed.

I think I'm feeling a little sting from Vash, though, but that's understandable considering what he just had to put up with before I came along :link:

[Ben]

Thanks for answering my questions, guys. I didn't know how long ago the first warning was, which was why I asked because I wanted to make sure that was considered. I didn't mean to say banning, Isis. Force of habit I guess.

I still think that it wouldn't hurt anything or anyone to give Crazy one final chance, but you are the admins and not I, and your minds are made up. I'm not going to ignorantly call you guys dictators or anything, but I still think it was a bit harsh. That's just my opinion, though, and I put all of my arguments in my last post and they have all been addressed.

I think I'm feeling a little sting from Vash, though, but that's understandable considering what he just had to put up with before I came along :link:
Not trying to start up the arguement again, but why should CrAzY! get any different treatment to anyone else who was demodded for two signature infractions?

Cardinal was demodded for that reason.

I think we were going to demod Daron Malakian for it before we found out he was inactive, too.

There was one other person who's name I keep thinking of as delt_zx that I believe was demodded for two signature warnings too.

CrAzY! got exactly the same treatment as anyone else would get. It doesn't matter if he's been here for 5 years without any official warnings (which can't be certain, due to screw-ups in the past administration [read: Mark] the previous list of moderator warnings was deleted in 2004).

If CrAzY! couldn't care to read the rules and instructions that were posted in multiple blatantly obvious areas (Isis thinks she put it in a moderator newsletter in August 2005, which is PMed to every moderator), then there's absolutely no reason for us to even consider giving him any different treatment to anyone else.

Not to mention that if the administration started ignoring some people's transgressions and punishing others inconsistantly, we'd only be giving those people who yell "power-abuse" at every opperunity more fuel.

That's why there are set rules that are enforced so strictly, so no one can claim we're playing favourites.

[Lazy F*ck]

I don't think the problem Pyro and beef and other SSB regulars may have is fact that Crazy got demodded, just rather that it happened out of nowhere. All the time I've been here the SSB forum was like a seperate section of the site. No one really 'interfered' with it and it was really just a bunch of regulars just talking about the game, and Crazy was okay with the occastional 'goof off'. I'm not saying he was a bad mod, though. He closed spam threads, warned people for flaming and stuff when it was needed.... I dunno, I guess it just seems weird that the administration has done something that effected the forum after 2 years(+) of really taking no notice....

I understand the reason for the demod, I don't necessarily agree with it, but whatever. Sorry to see Crazy loose his spot... Better luck next time. :D

[Silverbolt]

Wow...I'm surprised at this.

Sad to see him go...He was the first mod I talked to on GW...And I think being a mod was the only thing keeping him here...

Pyro and beef: No offense, but you are wasting your time...I don't think he's getting re-modded any time soon, and arguing with the admins is like shoving a stick in your ass...Long, painful, and fruitless...

[beefbutcher88]

Yeah that's why we stopped.

[Zackman]

Gah, I wished I got on last night! My condolences to Crazy as well, the first person to ever send me a PM over the internet. Sure hope I see him again.

Time to let this thingamabob die....

[element of fire]

0_o... all i have to say is that the new mods had better respect the opinions of Sr. members of the boards, namely pyro, beef, quazy, niko, fope and a few others... members like myself and beef have logged in many hours of high level tournament competition and we know the community better than most on the site... i hope they don't take their position to try and reshape the community... as far as i'm concerned, you guys are only here to make sure our sigs are in check, so no funny business... or people will be even more upset...

[Ben]

0_o... all i have to say is that the new mods had better respect the opinions of Sr. members of the boards, namely pyro, beef, quazy, niko, fope and a few others... members like myself and beef have logged in many hours of high level tournament competition and we know the community better than most on the site... i hope they don't take their position to try and reshape the community... as far as i'm concerned, you guys are only here to make sure our sigs are in check, so no funny business... or people will be even more upset...
As long as you remember that you're below the moderators, and anything they tell you to do you'd better listen, I'm sure they're not going to ruin your little tea-party.

[Isis]

0_o... all i have to say is that the new mods had better respect the opinions of Sr. members of the boards, namely pyro, beef, quazy, niko, fope and a few others... members like myself and beef have logged in many hours of high level tournament competition and we know the community better than most on the site... i hope they don't take their position to try and reshape the community... as far as i'm concerned, you guys are only here to make sure our sigs are in check, so no funny business... or people will be even more upset...
You do realize that posting something like that that sounds like a threat is just a fast track to making people mad and them not giving you respect, right? It doesn't look like to me they are shaking up anything. If anything it would be the "oldies" of the forums coming into this with closed minds that could cause more problems. I don't know Linux Pingu that well, but I know VG is a good mod and we've never gotten any complaints about him. So maybe this whole "respect" thing needs to go both ways, eh?

[element of fire]

hey, i've seen people abuse their power... i dont' want it to happen in the ssb forum... things have gone a specific way on that forum for years, now we have these new people, with and extremely limited experience with that community in charge... how would you expect us to react??? there was no disrespect in what i said, thats simply how i see things... you should stop twisting my words, and using the cocky carcasm to get your point accross... all i stated was the facts... i want this drama to be over as quick as anybody, i just want to make sure they know exactly what they're dealing with...

[Isis]

hey, i've seen people abuse their power... i dont' want it to happen in the ssb forum... things have gone a specific way on that forum for years, now we have these new people, with and extremely limited experience with that community in charge... how would you expect us to react??? there was no disrespect in what i said, thats simply how i see things... you should stop twisting my words, and using the cocky carcasm to get your point accross... all i stated was the facts... i want this drama to be over as quick as anybody, i just want to make sure they know exactly what they're dealing with...
I hope you weren't referring to me when you said replying with cocky sarcasm. I wasn't being sarcastic. Straight up basic communication skills that if you start off on the offensive, you get less results was my whole point. The way you stated your argument (the "tone" if you will) sounded very much like I'd picture a bad old western where the bad guys don't want no trouble from the new sherriff in town (no offense intended, just an example). Like the new mods aren't "allowed" to interact and post in the forum because you don't want any newness/changes.

[element of fire]

no that was the making me sound disrespectful and the whole, 'ruin your little tea-party' bit sorry ... yeah i do come off offensive, but again... what would you expect when something you've been used to for years is put in a position to change without your control? you'd try to protect that wouldn't you?? i meant no disrespect, and yeah facts can sound harsh.. but they were simply the facts as i see them, harsh or not... i understand i'm below the mods, but i follow the rules so shouldn't matter... as far as the community is concerned, they're bottom tier

[Ben]

you should stop twisting my words

i want this drama to be over as quick as anybody, i just want to make sure they know exactly what they're dealing with...Yes, because you using phrases like "make sure they know exactly what they're dealing with" isn't going to come across as aggressive.

What the moderators are dealing with are members in a forum. The SSB forum is no different from any other game help forum on Gamewinners, and will not be treated any differently. The rules will be enforced (which they weren't before, so you'll have to learn to live with that) and no one's going to break up whatever form of community is in existance in the forum.

I just expect the moderators to be treated with as much respect as they'll give you, if not more. Acting like you're going to cause trouble if things don't go your way isn't going to get you on anyone's good side.

And I know both Isis and you have posted since the one I quoted, but regardless...

[element of fire]

eh whatever... i've said what i wanted to say so i'll stop before it gets worse...

[syncan]

Crazy was always a bad mod. He sticked his first ever post, just because t was his. But it is also the oldest post still around.

[Mr. Blue!]

Come on people, seriously. Obviously these rules were in place before he got de-modded, and why should he be exempt from those rules? Sure, he's been at it for a while, but that is no excuse. In fact, if he's been doing it for so long why didn't he know the rules? Mods are supposed to be the creme of the crop members, and if they disobey rules then that sets a bad example for everyone else.

[Zackman]

Interesting fact: Sometime during the fall season-early winter, CrAzY wrote this under his title, "I'm not good at this mod thing." Maybe this was his weak cry for help, without approaching someone about his situation. Based on this, I don't think CrAzY thought he was a good mod. All statements in this thread about CrAzY being arrogant (or somewhat like that) are false. (there were some, so don't deny)

[Klowny]

All statements in this thread about CrAzY being arrogant (or somewhat like that) are false. (there were some, so don't deny)If arrogance were grounds for dismissal, the mod and admin forums would be radioactive ghost towns. :hmm:

[Coleman]

All statements in this thread about CrAzY being arrogant (or somewhat like that) are false. (there were some, so don't deny)Who said Crazy was arrogant? I just said he was a bad mod.

If arrogance were grounds for dismissal, the mod and admin forums would be radioactive ghost towns.I won't agree with you on much these days, but this is one of the things I will. But on the same respect, if arrogance were grounds for banning, there would be five members at GameWinners.

[Zackman]

I said that because there were some insults regarding CrAzY being arrogant. I know the reason why he was dismissed, I'm not that naive not to read the thread before posting. (for the record, those who hang out in the thunderdome should find something better to do, Midniteklown)

Should I edit that out, no I wont!

[Klowny]

I won't agree with you on much these days, but this is one of the things I will. But on the same respect, if arrogance were grounds for banning, there would be five members at GameWinners.I'm too humble to point out that I wouldn't be among those tepid 5. :D

I said that because there were some insults regarding CrAzY being arrogant. I know the reason why he was dismissed, I'm not that naive not to read the thread before posting.I was basically agreeing with you by highlighting a general trend. I have no doubt whatsoever that you have read this long topic in its entirety, understand the various opinions and are fully qualified to have an opinion of your own.

(for the record, those who hang out in the thunderdome should find something better to do, Midniteklown)Indeed. Hence, my presence here.

[Zackman]

I'm surprised at how humble your post is. One who walks out of the depths of the T-Dome usually is regarded as idiotic in my point of view. Congratulations!

[Klowny]

There's a trick to it.

Enter it with a brain, use your brain while there, leave everything there behind (except your brain) upon exiting.

[Zackman]

Since when is this about you, I wont post here again.

Waiting for forum to close.....

[Coleman]

I'm waiting for you to stop SPAMming, but that doesn't look like it's coming any time soon.

[CrAzY!]

I'm not going to lie, I'm surprised I wasn't demodded years ago. I always knew I was a bad mod by the standards of GW's rules, but it really didn't matter to me. I had a lot of fun doing what I wanted and, by the looks of it, so did the regular members. And that is all that really matters to me.

[Coleman]

I'm not going to lie, I'm surprised I wasn't demodded years ago. I always knew I was a bad mod by the standards of GW's rules, but it really didn't matter to me. I had a lot of fun doing what I wanted and, by the looks of it, so did the regular members. And that is all that really matters to me.This is the way a mod should go out. Bravo, Crazy. Bravo.

[Alu]

I'm not going to lie, I'm surprised I wasn't demodded years ago. I always knew I was a bad mod by the standards of GW's rules, but it really didn't matter to me. I had a lot of fun doing what I wanted and, by the looks of it, so did the regular members. And that is all that really matters to me.
Quite mature of you, applauding is needed.

Felt like posting my two cents in here.

I've known Crazy for a while, I posted in that thread of his way back when, my first post was in there too, actually. I was also a co-mod of his in the voting booth for a period of time, I don't remember him being generally active, but it didn't matter much because there were 3 other mods.

Now, I have absolutely no problems with crazy, and I was actually upset to see him go, never fun when a fellow old-timer leaves, but it was quite just in its reasoning, even though you've probably already accepted that.

[Crazy Jamie]

Indeed, it makes a pleasant change when someone can hold their hands up and retain their dignity. Good show.

[Air Head]

I agree with Cole. For now...

Though haveing my sig removed on my first acount i only had 2 warrnings and it was gone. As for Crazy it seems to be that he chooses not to have a sig unsted of it getting revoked. May i ask why?

[Ants!]

Crazy was always a bad mod. He sticked his first ever post, just because t was his. But it is also the oldest post still around.Actually, it being the oldest thread is the reason it was stickied. And I say it should still be. Not my call to make, of course, but I would give this advice to the new mods of that forum: if you want the regular members there to be more accepting of you, unstickying that thread might not be the best idea.


I've kind of expected that Crazy! might be taking this a little better than some of his fans. :^:

[Alice!]

Actually, it being the oldest thread is the reason it was stickied. And I say it should still be. Not my call to make, of course, but I would give this advice to the new mods of that forum: if you want the regular members there to be more accepting of you, unstickying that thread might not be the best idea.Schteve and I agreed, there's no reason a thread should be stickied just because it's old. If the members keep it going, it stays on the front page, and if they slip, it drops away. Besides, isn't it more impressive to have the oldest active thread than the oldest thread that just sits there?

Also, CrAzY, thanks for taking this so well.

[Schteve]

Besides, isn't it more impressive to have the oldest active thread than the oldest thread that just sits there?Definitely the best argument regarding that thread, I'd say.

And in light of the apparent member opposition (specifically element of fire's posts), I'm going to go make a thread for people to have their say and post what things they expect to happen from now on. Effective communication is needed for the proper working of any forum, and I see no place that needs it more right now.

[~Sean~]

Definitely the best argument regarding that thread, I'd say.

And in light of the apparent member opposition (specifically element of fire's posts), I'm going to go make a thread for people to have their say and post what things they expect to happen from now on. Effective communication is needed for the proper working of any forum, and I see no place that needs it more right now.

Enh. I just started going to that forum recently.. So I don't know a whole lot about CrAzY!.. Only talked to him on AIM once. Anyway, I don't care what anyone else thinks.. If CrAzY! himself is OK with being demodded, then why debate it? He was surely a nice enough guy.. Wasn't all strictly professional like every other Staff member I've talked to on AIM or any messenger for that matter.. so for that reasoning alone I almost feel bad.. But I guess you've gotta be strict to be a mod.

Oh. Yeah. I guess I should probably say the reason I quoted that post, huh?

Well just looking at your response to that, I can see you're a fine moderator.. Disreguarding the almost-threatening comments and just trying to help and whatnot.. I've got no problem accepting you and teh Spudzor even though I haven't really been here long enough (In that forum) to say much.. I don't think those two are going to mess with anything.. Seriously.. you people that are just about threatening them need to remember that Crazy hasn't been banned or anything.. he can still post there and whatnot. It's just going to be more strict now.. Big deal.

[User]

I didnt read the entirety of this topic, but I'm throwing in my two cents(but i call them pennies), I think the decision to take down CrAzY! was completely justified, given the fact that it was a second sig violation, and along with Coleman, I've noticed the blatently oversized sigs in the forum, and seen no words of warning from CrAzY! about them. As for the other accusations, I havent noticed them myself, or in very small amounts, but it sounds like its fair enough to me. I don't see why a forum regular(such as bb88) wasnt made a mod of the forum though, would have been a more forum regular friendly way to deal with the de-modding of CrAzY!. Besides, it's not like CrAzY! got banned here.

[Ants!]

I would just like to point out that, while I am no longer protesting his being demodded, I still think that a few things are being held against him unfairly. I agree with the reasons he got demodded: there was just no excuse for having two sigs nuked and for not checking his usernotes. The other stuff, though, I don't think is fair (none of this counts towards his demodding, it's just stuff that was tacked on afterwards). One is that he did nothing about the oversized sigs people who posted in his forum had. So, why aren't the mods of the other forums that these members posted in being scolded as well? Second is the accusation that he did nothing about the flaming and trolling. That's not true, because I can remember a time when I was being flamed by two other members, and he came in and warned both of them. One of them appologized and straightened up, but the other tried to fight it with more flaming and got banned.

[User]

I would just like to point out that, while I am no longer protesting his being demodded, I still think that a few things are being held against him unfairly. I agree with the reasons he got demodded: there was just no excuse for having two sigs nuked and for not checking his usernotes. The other stuff, though, I don't think is fair (none of this counts towards his demodding, it's just stuff that was tacked on afterwards). One is that he did nothing about the oversized sigs people who posted in his forum had. So, why aren't the mods of the other forums that these members posted in being scolded as well? Second is the accusation that he did nothing about the flaming and trolling. That's not true, because I can remember a time when I was being flamed by two other members, and he came in and warned both of them. One of them appologized and straightened up, but the other tried to fight it with more flaming and got banned.
From what I can see, its been a combination of all the things(well, it isnt actually that clear to see, and I'm starting to think I'm wrong). Even so, the job of a mod is to moderate and uphold the rules, breaking those rules is not fair just because you're a mod, and can't be seen to be allowed neither. Hence his de-modding, but not a banning.
I also think I may have seen the post you're referring to, and so I can support you on that point, although I'm not sure if there were official warnings issued.

[Ants!]

But didn't I just say that I agree that he broke the rules and was justly demodded? I was just referring to some of the other things people started to hold against him.

[Crazy Jamie]

Second is the accusation that he did nothing about the flaming and trolling. That's not true, because I can remember a time when I was being flamed by two other members, and he came in and warned both of them. One of them appologized and straightened up, but the other tried to fight it with more flaming and got banned.
I believe it wasn't that he did nothing, more than there was a considerable number of infractions that he either missed or ignored. Subtle yet important difference.

[Aphrodite]

The night of the demodding, Vash found 10 or so infractions not handled.

A good part from the people who originally jumped to CrAzY's defense.

[Chris]

It's late (in time, and in the thread), I don't care though :)

Gamewinners relies heavily on the moderators to report infractions to the admins, and the members to report infractions to the moderators. So ultimately, I blame you.

One of the most amusing comments I've ever heard at GW. Bring this guy a medal...

throw Crazy one too, he deserves our respect for his words here :)

[Ants!]

I found it amusing too, because when members "report infractions to the moderators", some moderators get annoyed and call them "mini-mods".

[Crazy Jamie]

I found it amusing too, because when members "report infractions to the moderators", some moderators get annoyed and call them "mini-mods".That's not mini modding. Mini modding is when a member actually tells another member off for breaking a rule. Reporting infractions is what members should do, and moderators should be grateful for it.

[DarkDoom321]

well id make a great moderator the best actually

[VashTheStampede]

...because when members "report infractions to the moderators", some moderators get annoyed and call them "mini-mods".

There are ways to report infractions to moderators that aren't considered "mini-modding". A member could PM the mod, or utilize the "Report this post" link.

Usually when moderators get annoyed, it is because the member is calling out the infraction in public, which can come off as grandstanding.

A lot of times, it ends up adding to the problems, when someone does something wrong and another member posts just to say "That's against the rules, you're gonna get warned". Lots of people would consider the second post to be spam and UGH that's a whole other problem and people?...just PM a mod or something.

[XZ]

well id make a great moderator the best actually
you know...i don't think that's a good way to prove your point...or say that, for that matter.


So when a member reports an incident to a mod, the mod should be grateful? and not pissed off about how the member is interfering with the mod's job?
hmm...i like that idea.

[Ben]

Within reason, every member is encouraged to report posts using the "Report this post" link on the offending post.

Unless a member is continually falsely reporting perfectly fine posts, then any moderator who finds the help abbrasive and unwelcomed can have a nice long talk with the administrators in a dark alley.