DEBATE: Gogeta/Vegitto... SSJ1 or SSJ2?

[Cannibal3rd]

Ah right, I missed that post by him. Posted just before me.

Well, I have a question. Since Budokai Tenkaichi came out it's got a new feature called Character Illustrations and they give a picture of the character and a whole load of information behind them, and it all seems very accurate.

Now I've always thought that Gogeta went SSJ2 and Budokai 3 said the same thing, but I got Movie 12 the other day and he didn't have the blue bolts so he must have been SSJ and Tenkaichi also says he went SSJ.

...so could someone clarify that, plus also agreeing with me that Vegito also went SSJ and not SSJ2.

[zanderman]

Vegito only went SSJ, but he was more powerful than an SSJ2...im almost positive that Gogeta was a SSJ2 as there were high electrrical sparks and the hair was very pointy

[Cannibal3rd]

I got the film the other day and I don't remember seeing any sparks at all. Just a golden aura which vanished within a few seconds. Either way janemba lasted about 5 seconds.

[Neo Matrix]

The electricity is only a "marker" to show how much power they are generating. So if SSJ Vegitto/Gogeta had lighting, chances are that their SSJ1 forms are just as, if not more powerful than the original SSJ2 transformations.

[Cannibal3rd]

Yeah that's what I thought. A case of I'm strong enough to kick your ass in SSJ so there is no need to waste energy.

[Pedro]

I've always known that a SSJ2 has bigger muscles than the normal form, and you all agree with me, right?
So, if you watch closely you can notice that Vegito's muscles grows to the double when he transforms while fighting Buu.
Besides, both Goku and Vegeta could transform to SSJ2 so he could to. In my opinion Vegito was in SSJ2.

[Cannibal3rd]

But ask yourself, why would Vegito want to go to SSJ2?

He was already roughly the same strength as Buu at Normal. So SSJ would have been enough to do what he wanted (which was rescue everyone inside of Buu), if he went SSJ2 he would have destroyed Buu in the click of a finger.

Also, the muscles grow when you turn SSJ too. Look at the Frieza saga. Plus, vegito had no electric bolts so that wouldn't have been SSJ2. Anytime you power up in SSJ2 there are blue bolts.

[\/\/iseGohanIII]

Vegito was in SSJ1 while fighting Majin Buu. He would have the capability to turn SSJ2, since both Goku and Vegita were able to turn SSJ2 at that point.

IMO, Gogeta was also only in SSJ1 while fighting Janemba. As with Vegito, Gogeta would also have the capability to turn SSJ2, since both Goku and Vegita were able to turn SSJ2 at that point.

[zanderman]

me being noob about my electric bolt post...but i believe that gogeta needed to turn SSJ2 to defeat Janemba as he was a weaker fusion...dont really know the comparisons of some movie characters but i would say that Janemba is around the power of Base Super Buu, and if that is true it makes perfect sense that Gogeta needed to go SSJ2...as Potara fusion is much stronger than the Metamore dance, Vegito had a much greater power at SSJ then Gogeta, so if Janemba and Super Buu are around the same power level than Gogeta could have been SSJ2

[\/\/iseGohanIII]

I'm not sure about Gogeta, he could well have been in SSJ2, I just think he was in SSJ1. I do know that Vegito was SSJ1 while fighting Majin Buu.

[Pedro]

The electricity sparks means nothing. If you watch that episode again you can see that Vegito has some electricity sparks around him even when he is in his normal state.
Besides, Gotenks had electricity sparks when he was being chased by Piccolo around the world and in DBGT, Goku has them when he is only SSJ.

[zanderman]

um Gotenks is not formed in GT, and read my last post, i stated that iwas being a noob...and read the last post to find a perfect explanation to this

[Neo Matrix]

He didn't say that... he said that SSJ Goku in GT had sparks.

[Pedro]

I didn't said he was formed in GT, I was talking about Goku.
And sorry about saying stuff that was already discussed but I just gave some examples

[Duranna144]

If you look into HOW characters powerup in the series, Vegitto was only SSJ, not SSJ2. There isn't a recorded occurrance of a character in the actualy DBZ series jumping through SSJ in the first transformation. Furthermore, regardless of the lightning bolts, SSJ2 had the distinct appearance of the large hair hanging down in front of the face, which vegitto didn't have. That was the whole point of Vegitto. He was such a powerful fusion that he could have destroyed Buu easily, by either going SSJ2, or theoretically going SSJ3, since Goku had that ability, but it was purely b/c of his power, not because he had learned it. However, Vegitto could not destroy Buu without killing everyone inside, so he purposfully got himself absorbed. In the original version, he cries out "NOW" right before getting absorbed (rather than "oh no" or whatever the english translation has him do).

As for Gogeta, i have no idea as I did not watch GT or the movies made after GT. However, judging by images, I would go with SSJ not SSJ2.

[Neo Matrix]

In the original version, he cries out "NOW" right before getting absorbed (rather than "oh no" or whatever the english translation has him do).It was even more opposite than that... it's "Yes! Barrier!"

[Cannibal3rd]

As for Gogeta, i have no idea as I did not watch GT or the movies made after GT. However, judging by images, I would go with SSJ not SSJ2.

Dude, Movie 12 is before GT...like way before GT. Gogeta in GT was SSJ4.

We're on about Gogeta in DBZ Movie 12.

[Kakarotto]

Vegetto is a SSJ1
& Gogeta SSJ2

The fusion with Potara is lot stronger than normal fusion (Gogeta, Gotenks)
So from the hard to became SSJ2 by fusion with Potara

[gogeta ssj4!]

i have budokai 3 and tenkaichi games..its weird at budokai 3 it says gogeta is ssj2...and in tenkaichi it says ssj1....weird..anuway i think that both of then could become ssj2 but they are ssj1.one question...whu the fusion is weaker than potara fusion...u mean in a fight between gogeta and vegito vegito would win???

[Neo Matrix]

Fusion Dance... both people have to be the same power level, therefore one will have to be below their peak for it to work.

With Potara, this doesn't make a difference, as long as the two do not have their bodies under strain (eg: in SSJ state) when they go through with the fusion, the result will bring the strongest out of both of them.

No, this isn't about a fight between the two... just which stage do they reach in DBZ.

[Super Saiya-jin 4 Goku]

Both can go SSJ2, both are only seen in SSJ (Unless we count GT, where SSJ4 is also seen)

The reason for this bein that fusions are so powerful, that maxin out power is not necessary. As well as fusions LOVE to play with their opponent(s). So, they never show their true power, out of spite. This is easily seen with Vegitto by how easily he deflects Majin Buu's quasi-Death Ball. How powerful they are was again seen in Movie 12, where Gojita doesn't even try, and beat Janemba with one ki attack. Both fusions knew they could transform at a higher level, but the fight wouldn't have been fun at all.

The only fusion that decides to show full power is Gotenks. This is because it's children, who wanted to imitate Goku. They saw SSJ3 not as a transformation level of high proportions, but as somethin for them to do, because it "looked cool".

The last tidbit also helps to prove that Vegitto and Gojita could attain SSJ2 if a Fusion-Waza of 2 children attained SSJ3, who's to say that the world's 2 last surviving Pure Bred Saiya-jins couldn't? (One who is the focal point of the show, and the other his biggest rival)

And by couldn't, I mean SSJ2. Not SSJ3, to which if it was possible in either fusion, the strain on the person, AND the world would be horrific. (Think Gohan tryin to go SSJ or SSJ2 while havin the Mystic upgrade [As most know, if he did, the world would have been destroyed], and multiply that by AT LEAST 2, prob closer to 3 or more)

[MaxedoutMMA]

SS4Goku I clapp for you because you are the only other person I've seen say the fact that Mystic Gohan Could go SSJ,thank YOU,I'm so happy!Any how I just wanted to know something.To my knowledge once the Fighters do the Fusion Dance and are fused why couldn't they just use their full power then.I mean I don't recall anyone saying that once they fused they couldn't dig into their full power,If they did,what would happen would they separate or something.I Have seen all but like 3 episodes in Japanese,The one explaining the Fusion Waza is one of them.I I don't know if its said that they can't simple adjust their powers Fuse and then use their full power.I mean I seriously doubt that Goten or Trunks could go SSJ3 on their own,I mean its stated in english but I'm not sure if thats true for the Japanese verion.Also I Have Gogeta Footage that I watch all the time,specifically when They Fuse to Gogeta and kick his Hell Butt.They just look like SSJ1.They beat the crap outta him(Janemba) blast him and vuwala they kill him/turn him back to normal.I didn't see him turn SSJ2.Not to mention like the guy before said you never see a Saiya-jin Skip Levels of Super Saya-jin.They go through them one by one till they reach the form they want/can handle.

[Super Saiya-jin 4 Goku]

Saiya-jins skippin SSJ levels never done eh? Yes it does, but only a fusion character...Gotenks. Gotenks goes from SSJ to SSJ3.

[MaxedoutMMA]

Well I don't know about that,cause when Gotenks goes SSJ in the RoSaT it was Really Dramatic and there was a LOT of power so he could have done SSJ1 and kept going straight to Level 2,because he's SSJ transformatiopn was so dramatic and there was so much power it could have been a SSJ2.You saw all the power they let out when they changed compared to the normal SSJ Transformation . . . then agian they are much stronger then the usual SSJ so I could be wrong,I'll get back to you on that.But still none the less,I see the Gogeta seen all the time and it doesn't look like he's a SSJ2.

[Super Saiya-jin 4 Goku]

I'm takin information straight from the Daizenshyuus bro, which states Gotenks' SSJ levels, and they are SSJ and SSJ3. Also, if he went SSJ2 durin the transformation from 1 to 3, we'd see at least his hair spikier and more defined.

To see SSJ2 sometimes can be a hassle. It's more about how defined the hair looks. If it seems like the spikes can be seen easier, or if the person has a strand of hair danglin down further, it's SSJ2. Watch Goku's transformation explaination to Majin Buu and Babidi to help understand what I'm talkin about.

[MaxedoutMMA]

I have seen that Episode.But still thats like saying that when Vegeta goes SSJ2 he has a strand of hair but he does,in fact its pretty hard to tell sometimes when Vegeta goes SSJ2 except when he says he's in that form.Also when Gotenks was going SSJ3 why is it so Impossible that he might have gone through SSJ and kept Going to SSJ3 in that moment.He had lota of electricity and spiky hair.Its not impossible that he was in SSJ2 and Kept going to SSJ3.Out of any body here and maybe Neo matrix,you know alot about DBZ like me but I still think that you over look stuff from the smaller episodes.Also Also where does is say in the D-book that Fusions skip SSJ levels,your just stating that from your educated opinion.I respect your opinion more then other ppls cause you've look into stuff alot more but still don't state things like they are fact when sometimes it is just your opinion.Also that just doesn't make sense.Thats like saying that you don't need to go SSJ1/SSJ2 you can just go SSJ3 and if you have to go at least SSJ to skip,why claim that they skip.Why wouldn't they just be going SSJ powering up through SSJ2 and going straight to SSJ3,that doesn't mean they skipped it.Anyhow all I'm saying is that I think Neither Gogeta or Vegetto were in SSJ2 nor had to because they are just that powerful,not to mention neither really looks like they are in SSJ2.I mean they are super dupper powerful so alot of stuff like the way they look when they are just powering up seems to be like a SSJ2 form powering up.Anyhow Fusions are always super strong,I mean its not even like the Fusions are a combination of the 2 fused characters strongers but more of a multiplier.Because if you combined the strengths of Buu,Mystic Gohan,Piccolo,Trunks and Goten thats way more then the power of just Goku and Vegeta Combined so its obvious that the fusion process is more of a multiplier.So I don't think neither Gogeta or Vegetto had to go SSJ2 to fight buu or Janemba.Mind you Janemba is suposed to be all the Evil from everybody thats died thats Evil,so that includes PPl like Buu,So Janemba was really more powerfull then buu.Of course that is up for debate,and if in some way you feel that Buu is stronger then Janemba that thats still pooves that Gogeta wouldn't have to go SSJ2. So = p....

[Super Saiya-jin 4 Goku]

Actually bro, the whole idea of Gotenks with SSJ skippin SSJ2 and goin SSJ3 is stated in Daizenshyuu 7. I wasn't just pullin that one out of my ass. Go to a site like Vegitto EX's site, or Greg Werner's old site for more information. That is Gotenks only. I said nothin about fusions in general able to skip SSJ levels. (I know you're not tryin, but please don't put words in my mouth.)

As for Vegitto and Gojita, I agree with you, read what I wrote earlier. I said both can go SSJ2, but only are seen in SSJ. You're correct, their immense power made it so SSJ2 was not necessary.

[Neo Matrix]

Also, Movie #12 is set before Buu dies, so Janemba technically shouldn't have Buu's essence in him.

[omegacrusher]

it's said I can bump this thread if it had anything to do about it, so...

Vegito is SSJ, but Gogeta is SSJ2. It is clear: the best carateristic of a ssj2 is the strand of hair (a single one) falling from the head. We see this in Gogeta, but not in Vegito. Also, about the lighting sparks... We all see that Gogeta has an aura that is the double of his size. Maybe that immense area is replacing the smaller but more concentrated (hence the lighting) area of a normal SSJ2 aura? The strand of hair to me is the best clue. Both goku and gohan have that caracteristc strand of hair, so why gogeta isn't ssj2 if he has it also?

Also, the SSJ2 Gogeta is the only fusion that hasn't the joking personality of the others. He is serious, and he just beats the opponent quickly because of his immense power gap.

[Goku]

I believe Gogeta has more of Vegeta's personality, whereas Vegito has more of Goku's personality.

I held the belief that the fusion dance resulted in a stronger warrior when the two "product" warriors were already similar in strength. I figured that was why the Portara fusions last forever while the dance lasts for thirty minutes. Because of the excess energy, the transformation can only last thirty minutes, but I am probably wrong (sounds logical though).