Freedom of speech on GW

[Jake]

So Leandros and I are not allowed ot have political opinions that differ from "the norm"? Just because the subjects are controvosial, we're not allowed to have political opinions?

Confederate flags and swatstikas are symbols of a political party. During October, "Bush" and "Kerry" sigs were rampant, people defended which party they were voting for. Me and Leandros are not allowed to the same thing only with slightly more controvosial parties?

Too much people think the confederate flag means slavery. These people do not even know what the civil war was fought over. It was fought over state rights. The confederates were not fighting for union-wide slavery, they were fighting for the slavery issue to be a state issue, rather than a national issue.

Yes, the Nazis want to kill the Jews. But it is in their believe that ridding the world of Jews would embetter the world. Because you cannot disprove that, you cannot say that they are wrong, nor right. It is merely a political opinion on how to make the world a better place. It's not even officially in practice anymore.

Freedom of speech and opinions (even controvosial ones) are being demanded.

[Tom]

Pfft, I thought Midnitekown was going over the top about the attention whore thing, but obviously not. You don't hold that political belief, and Leandros isn't a Nazi. Get down off your high horse.

[jackenape]

There's no such thing as "freedom of speech" on GW. There are forums where certain less-than-mainstream opinions are entertained, but you've apparently decided not to keep those thoughts there.

So quit your f*cking whining. If you can't follow some rather simple rules, you don't deserve anything.

[Crazy Jamie]

The answer to this is simple. If you allow complete and total freedom of speech you allow such things severely racist and prejudiced remarks about all minority groups. In other words you leave the door open for a lot of vicious remarks that will cause offense to a lot of people, all of which are justified because 'it is just their point of view'. At the end of the day the forums need to find a balance between allowing people to voice their opinion and not allowing comments to be made or actions to be done that will either course widespread offense or that are generally insensitive/in bad taste. I cannot comment on the confederate flag because thanks to my nationality my knowledge is limited. But displaying a swastika in your signature is most definately crossing this line. I understand that you want freedom of speech- but a line needs to be and has been drawn.

On a side note defending Leandros' actions on the basis that it is a political belief is ridiculous. You and I both know that he did not do that because of his political beliefs- he did it to be controversial and gain attention whilst attempting to fall just inside the boundary lines. That is why he did it- it had nothing to do with political beliefs.

[Jake]

He did not do that for attention, he did it more as a inside joke after there was a whole Hitler discussion in PIMI.

I am a rebublican, wheras I believe that a state is more divine than the union. I believe that a lot more issues should be state-maintained than nation-maintained, and that the states are only united when it comes to war. So yes, in that sense, I am a confederate. Can I display my flag?

[shortkut]

the confederate doesn't exist anymore so it technically can't be your flag since there is know way you were born when it did exist

[Jake]

If it is not technically a flag, then it technically doesn't stand for anything. So no big deal.

[shortkut]

i never said it is not a flag. i said it cannot be your flag, like you state/imply at the end of your other post

Can I display my flag?

[Creeper]

As a Republican, you should respect the authority figures on GW and take it out of your sig. Are you personally offended by being asked to remove it? Are you fighting for the rights of Nazi's/Confederates everywhere? I really don't think so. If it was all a joke in the first place, then apparently nobody found it funny, and you shouldn't be so defensive about it. Remove the flag.

[Retrospect]

...So no big deal.
Exactly. You're the one who started the thread.
Technically, it's still a Confederate flag, but the Confederate(a group of people who fought for slavery to be a state issue in the 1860's) does not exist anymore. You can't be part of something that does not exist. Believe what you want about politics, that doesn't exactly give you the right to display anything you want.

[Jake]

The confederates did not fight "for slavery" for the millionth time. They fought for slavery to be determined as a state issue. The slavery issue was only one of the issues, it's just that slavery was the most publicized one. Flying the confederate flag does not mean that you support slavery, it means you support the "state is more divine than the union" thought.

Oh, and if the group doesn't exist, why is it a huge deal if I promote it's flag?

[shortkut]

what, no response to me :cry:

[Retrospect]

The confederates did not fight "for slavery" for the millionth time. They fought for slavery to be determined as a state issue. The slavery issue was only one of the issues, it's just that slavery was the most publicized one. Flying the confederate flag does not mean that you support slavery, it means you support the "state is more divine than the union" thought.

Oh, and if the group doesn't exist, why is it a huge deal if I promote it's flag?
...fought for slavery to be a state issue.
I know they didn't fight just for slavery, that's common sense. You're the one implying that I care about them fighting for slavery, so I narrowed it down to slavery for you.

Whether something still exists or not, it can still be an issue of controversy.

[Jake]

I didn't mean to call it "my" flag, Shortkut.

Springer, are you saying that controvosial subjects won't be allowed just because they are controvosial? That's boarderline retarded.

Confederate ideas still exist, even if their army doesn't. I can still support their values. It's up to the forums to decide whether I'm allowed to display my opinion or not.

[Dantilus]

I am a rebublican, wheras I believe that a state is more divine than the union. I believe that a lot more issues should be state-maintained than nation-maintained, and that the states are only united when it comes to war.So why not an elephant?

[Retrospect]

Springer, are you saying that controvosial subjects won't be allowed just because they are controvosial? That's boarderline retarded.
I never once said it shouldn't be allowed, but the controvesial side of it has evidently caused people to look at you in a negative light, and told you thier feelings about it. Thus, you making this thread to complain about it.

Personally, I don't find it very offensive. I also don't find it in good taste. If you want to have the Confederate flag in you signature, then be my guest. If you can't handle people seeing it as a sign of loyalty to a group of people who fought ultimately to legalize slavery*, then don't complain when they they tell you they take offense to it.

*Yes, they fought to legalize slavery(among other things, but mainly slavery). They needed to keep slavery alive in the southern states so thier economy would continue to prosper. If the South won the war, the northern states wouldn't have slaves, but the southern states would.

[Wezlanator]

If it aint against the rules, who cares?

[Raηma]

If it aint against the rules, who cares?

The people who are offended by the ideas that the flag stands for.

Jake is demanding the freedom of speetch, but this forum dosn't exactly have complete freedom of speetch (as Crazy Jamie pointed out), however I don't think anywhere that it is against the rules (Wezlanator?), so if it truely isn't, as people seem to be saying, I don't see why Jake is complaining about it. If Jake is receiving negative comments about the flag, well golly gee that's Jake's problem, if you don't like what people have to say then either live with it or change whatever it is you're doing. Now if people are flaming the guy, well that's another story alltogether....


(I don't think it is against any rules, otherwise S-mods or Admins would have removed it by now, unless they are as unsure as we are right now.)

[Kit Raposa]

Jake mentioned Leandros' sig, which was a swastika, which WAS deleted. The argument is over whether the rules would allow Jake's flag... the swastika was obviously a step too far. Jake's is toeing the line. And such.

Hmm... I had another point to make, but it's 4 A.M. where I am and I'm sleepy. And I also can't remember it.

[Northern Lights]

Put him on your ignore list if you don't like it.

[Jake]

Put him on your ignore list if you don't like it.
My opinion exactly.

My old sig is back, if you noticed. I just wanted to test how far the mods would take this "censorship" thing. I still think that Leandros should be allowed to have a swastika.

[shortkut]

Al has a personal thing against all swastikas and since he runs the boards, what he says goes. if you and/or leandros don't like that rule then start your own forums or find new ones to visit because that rule is not changing anytime soon

[Insane man]

Also if you don't want people making such big deals about it don't put things like omfg controversey or defending the political views of Gw. You just draw attention to yourself. Also when you sign up you agree to the Terms of Service which states, any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.Also you guys have this notion of free speech which basically does not exist. Basically if we the mods, smods and admins determine that your sig is in bad taste we have the right to remove it. Yeah people did display their bush and kerry signs and you are comparing them to the Nazis and the confederates. You can support the view just don't do it here.

[Commander Cool]

Here is my theoretical reply - I can understand why people would be offended by the swastika. This was a world-wide phenomenon, & it affected most anyone. Hell I have german blood in me, & I am opposed to the swastika...doesn't mean I'm offended by it. But Al did make the right move by not allowing anything to do with the nazi party.

However, the confederate flag is a different story. this was more just a national thing, & GW spreads to several other countries. The confederate flag doesn't really mean anything today, except for its history. Some of the views coming from the confederates were ideas that were first used when American was starting out as colonies; We still had slaves. So pretty much, that confederate flag came from american beliefs.

Try comparing it to our current U.S. flag. Now, for some odd reason, some people deem the U.S. flag offending, pending on what country & culture you're from. Yet people have U.S. flag sigs. So it puzzles me how we attack one flag, & defend the other. I'm not saying I have anything against the U.S., best Freaking country in the world.

Also when you sign up you agree to the Terms of Service which states, any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email.

The Realistic reply - The TOS also states that the GW forums is a private-run website, meaning you give up some rights here, i.e. you are not allowed to say certain things, or do other certain things, so this can be a clean community. Might as well just abide by the rules, & live with it. If you want to voice your opinion, leave the computer, go outside, go protest, or do something. Who knows, either you'll be supported, or shot. Either way, you'll make a difference somewhat.

[Klowny]

Freedom of speech and opinions (even controvosial ones) are being demanded.You can say whatever the hell you want - just not here at this PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED WEBSITE.

[bojangles]

Too much people think the confederate flag means slavery. These people do not even know what the civil war was fought over. It was fought over state rights. The confederates were not fighting for union-wide slavery, they were fighting for the slavery issue to be a state issue, rather than a national issue.

So it was over state rights? And in particular the state right to decide on the legality of slavery? So essentially, the south was fighting to keep slavery? My deductive reasoning (and the fact that I've lived in Georgia and Virginia) tells me that the Civil War was fought mainly about slavery, and as an afterthought, sovereignty of state...the latter of which I agree with. The problem is Jake, the south used a great idea (strong state governments, weaker central government) for a terrible purpose. In many peoples minds, the Confederate flag is about heritage. And in just as many cases, it's about hate. The latter of which I strongly disagree with.

[Argh]

My two cents: Here at GW free speech is a privledge not a right. Conform to the rules and you should be ok. Know that this is a "PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED WEBSITE", therefore you can be discliplined, removed, etc by the management for breaking rules which ARE subject to change or even if they just don't like you. Most mods, Smods, admins, etc are fair and have reasons. Obviously someone was offended and they complained.

[shortkut]

my 1¢

old thread

[Argh]

well.. it wasnt dead.. so..

[Singin Hobo]

I don't know if this has been touched upon or not, but when you all signed on you agreed to the terms of use... which basically says that everything you type belongs to GameWinners, they can control and censor you all they want with absolutely no reason.

Just one of the many rights you gave up when you joined GW.

[Inlé_rah]

Freedom of speech and opinions (even controvosial ones) are being demanded. *smiles*

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Right. That applies to the US legislature, limited government and all that jazz.

This, the way things are set in the forum rules, applies to GW. Technically, as owner of this site, Al can be as much of a leviathan if he wants. Not saying that he will or is even likely to, but still. Being here is our choice. Abiding by the rules such as they are is part of the ToS.

[Tommy Boy]

Also, on that note, why should Congress have part in this, when there are people who don't live in the USA? They have their own rights, while we have our own. :hmm:

[shortkut]

everyone obey the rules or Alu will hax0r your komput0r

[Inlé_rah]

Also, on that note, why should Congress have part in this, when there are people who don't live in the USA? They have their own rights, while we have our own. :hmm:
Many nations, at least in those countries classified as liberal democracies, have either a written bill of rights or a common law tradition that recognize many of the same ones.

In fact, in the other Bills I've read, there are many more specific enumerated rights, some of them incredibly broad. The US, however, sums it up in the 9th and 10th Amendments, especially the 10th.

Specific things about GW are regulated by US law (as well as they can be). The most obvious example would be COPPA (which requires that US members have to be either 13 or have a parents permission).

[ICU812]

This was about the member with a swastika in his (or her) sig, right?
I hate to be the one to inform everyone that the swastika is a symbol of eternal life.
I believe that it is sacred to Hindus.
Also the arms of a swastika bend to the right, not the left.
So, the member in question didn't have a swastika on his sig.
And he definitely didn't have a Nazi flag on it.
The Nazi flag is a black swastika in a white circle on a red flag.

And here's a question:
Do I support slavery if I hang a poster with a picture of the "General Lee" on it?

I am offended by the word "the"...
I want it permanently banned from the GW site.

[Singin Hobo]

Get your own site

[Crazy Jamie]

This was about the member with a swastika in his (or her) sig, right?
I hate to be the one to inform everyone that the swastika is a symbol of eternal life.
I believe that it is sacred to Hindus.
Also the arms of a swastika bend to the right, not the left.
So, the member in question didn't have a swastika on his sig.
And he definitely didn't have a Nazi flag on it.
The Nazi flag is a black swastika in a white circle on a red flag.
And I hate to inform you that the member who had the aformentioned symbol in their signature is not a Hindu, and it not do it for religious reasons or for reasons of personal belief. We also don't care about the specifics- the site owner has a specific view of symbols like this and it was therefore removed. That is the bottom and is not open for discussion, nor will you trying to be smart get anywhere.

I am offended by the word "the"...
I want it permanently banned from the GW site.
Stop trying to be clever. It only makes you look immature and foolish.

[obilivion]

blah blah blah im always right

[ICU812]

Stop trying to be clever. It only makes you look immature and foolish.I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass.
I am not telling you to change anything.
I merely stated some facts.
I was also trying to add humor to lighten the situation.
I am not promoting fascism or rascism...
I just followed a link here and joined the discussion.
At least I didn't SPAM like these members:
-shortkut
-SingingHobo
-oblivion

[jackenape]

I'd rather drive a Porche. Maybe we'll both have our wishes come true next Christmas!
You'd be ignored anyway.
Pointless facts.
...that was trying? Christ.
Well, good for you, Gallant!
Nice to see you've been trained.
At least they're not GIANT TATTLE-TALES!

[ICU812]

Oooh, now I'm going to cry...
Insulted on a forum thread, what ever shall I do???
I didn't report their posts.
I was refering to the fact that I got reamed for stating something relating to this thread...
While others are just SPAMming, like you.

[jackenape]

And likely snot the whole place up in the process.
Attempt to save face by resorting to really lame sarcasm?
You certainly whined about them.
No, you got "reamed" (drama queening much?) for SPAMing. Which you did.
Whine a little more, why don't ya?

[ICU812]

You're the one whining about my posts...

[jackenape]

"Oh yeah!? Well...well...I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I!?!?"

Oooooooooooh!

"If we direct any more power to the Deflector, the reactor's gonna blow, Cap'n!"

I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass.

Nice to see you've already given up on this one. Shoot for that lowered bar!

[Tommy Boy]

Seriously, this should be closed. Mis-quoting people is immature. ICU was speaking his opinions. There's no need for flaming in that. Jamie should close this it got way out of hand. :hmm:

[Crazy Jamie]

I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass.You started off trying to be the former. You ended up being the latter.

I am not telling you to change anything.
I merely stated some facts.
I was also trying to add humor to lighten the situation.
I am not promoting fascism or rascism...
I just followed a link here and joined the discussion.You were deliberatly trying to be difficult and were also trying to be clever. In some places that will get you places. But this forum is not one of them. If you were actually trying to add humor to the situation you failed. That's what shortkut was doing, and succeeded. Hobo was actually making a point which you obviously couldn't see. Oblivion is being dealt with.

Now I suggest you make an attempt to stop digging and climb out of your hole.

[ICU812]

Attempt to save face by resorting to really lame sarcasm?
I'd rather drive a Porche. Maybe we'll both have our wishes come true next Christmas!
...that was trying? Christ.
Well, good for you, Gallant!
Nice to see you've been trained.
Speak for yourself.

Oooooooooooh!

"If we direct any more power to the Deflector, the reactor's gonna blow, Cap'n!"
Let me guess...
You're thirteen, you hate your parents, and you know everything, right?

Nice to see you've already given up on this one. Shoot for that lowered bar!What?
Are you retarded? (seriously)

You want to make up quotes, huh?
How's this: I'm a little tough guy.
I like to act big and bad when I'm online.
I am trying to overcompensate for my tiny stature and little d*ck.
I don't have anything valuable to contribute so I like to start fights.
You must be a hit with ladies.

[ICU812]

Sorry for the DP, but I wanted to state...
I'm sorry for offending anyone.
I was not trying to change anyone's opinion.
I'm sorry for lowering myself to jack's level.
I do admit that sometimes it is fun to act immature like this.

[jackenape]

Mis-quoting people is immature.

That's called "paraphrasing," not misquoting, but thanks for the input, Modabe Jones!

Speak for yourself.

I will. However, after reading your replys, I'd suggest you have someone else do the same for you.

Let me guess...
You're thirteen, you hate your parents, and you know everything, right?

Well, you've yet to be right up till now, so why try and buck the system?

But yes, I do know everything. *Do De DooDoo Do De DooDoooooooo*

What?
Are you retarded? (seriously)

You didn't get it, and you ask me if I'm disabled? Mediocrity must seem like a fuzzy, wonderful dream to you...*wistful sigh*

You want to make up quotes, huh?
How's this:

It's actually pretty damned poor. As I pointed out to whats-his-face, I paraphrased your response. You just made a cheap, weak (oh, so very, very weak...) attempt at farce. *difference*

I'm sorry for lowering myself to jack's level.

Lowering...still failing to reach with a stepladder and a polearm...same difference. :rolleyes:

Jamie: Yeah, I know: I must be beaten. Do whatcha gotta. No hard feelings.

[Tommy Boy]

Meh, this kind of crap makes me wish I never joined Gamewinners.

[ICU812]

Don't get your panties in a bunch.
I said I was sorry.
I was trying to show you how you come across...

You didn't get it, and you ask me if I'm disabled? Mediocrity must seem like a fuzzy, wonderful dream to you...*wistful sigh*You seem to have Tourrets syndrome.
You have no argument, just insults.
As they say, "Ignorance is bliss."...
So you must be ecstatic.