Lord Of The Rings

[Yellow Banshee]

Yeah, we should get back on track.

[Ciara Valentine]

Good idea!!

[Inlé_rah]

Hmm. Well I don't quite know what you all were discussing, but I think I shall have a bit of fun...

The LotR=racist argument.
It's not exactly difficult to make. Even for a fan:

Skipping over the obvious problems with your evil oliphaunt-riding Haradrim and Southrons being dark skinned, the three 'races' of Hobbits of which the fairest are the elites such as Bagginses, Tooks, Brandybucks and etc., and things of that sort, there are of course divisions among the 'race of men', the good or relatively good guys themselves: the men of darkness, of twighlight (the middle men), and the high men.

Now, the first category, the wild men, like Ghân buri-Ghân whom sadly was left out of the movie adaptation (no doubt in some terrible conspiracy) are widly ignored by all others. Inward-turning, they leave behind no monuments to their fame unlike the other classes with the possible exception of the Pukel-men at Dunharrow. The oldest men to inhabit those parts of Middle Earth, long before Eorl the Young came from the North or the Faithful fled the ruin of Numenor to return, are scarce remembered by history.

Now to the men of twilight, of which the people of Rohan are usually held as an example, their distinction from the high men...er...never became very clear to me as someone whom could never get past the Music of the Anuir in the Silmarrilion. Something about not receiving or heeding some sort of 'call'. But as far as my fun and games are concerned, I see no reason to linger other than the fact that these guys don't have dark hair and grey eyes unlike the next victims of my 'analysis.'

Ok. Now to the 'fun' part, the all-important master race, the Men of the West, the Dunedain, the Numenoreans, the Men of Westernesse, the Edain and whatever titles and translated titles that can be bestowed upon these chumps that usually deal with their spiritual Vaterland, no offense, of course. Perhaps, I simply got tired of reading about the 'blood of Numenor' or perhaps I shouldn't have been juggling reading LotR for the 4th time with assigned history course readings such as Mein Kampf. Perhaps such juxtaposition has totally screwed up how I read it. Ve vont evar know, now vill ve? I can't help scoffing about the pointed description out the the blood of Numenor running 'pure' or 'nearly pure' or 'untainted' in such people as Faramir and Denethor and that prince-guy of Dol Amroth. Such distictions must be codified by the learned eugenicists of Gondor. In addition, compared to other humans, these Numenorean guys have been the source of basically all 'high' human arts, scholarly achievement, monuments of the glorified past and all that stuff in Middle Earth. Wow. This sounds vaguely...familiar. Make other connections as you will, I've wasted enough time here. Aragorn, Führer des vereinigten Reichs von Gondor und von Arnor? (Anschluß anyone?). Wait! I said I was done!

Anyways, I've done enough damage here. In parting, may the Valar watch over you on your path under the stars. Namaarie!

~by Inlé who apparently had nothing better to do on a Friday night. Perhaps this perverse 'academic' curiosity is why I had nothing better to do in the first place...;)

Next time, an exploration of the femyle stereotypes through the examination of only 4 femyle characters with names: the lady who awaits hopefully for the return of the 'knight' (a rip-off of just about every epic from la belle Aude in La Chanson de Roland onward), the behind-the-scenes puppet master whom is deemed manipulative by her male enemies yet has historically has had conflicts with others because of her nontraditional leadership role, the cold-hearted Amazon who is eventually cured from her malplaced desires of glory by the love of a man, and (for those who couldn't think that their actually was a 3rd femyle character with a name of her own) the stereotypical blabbermouth middle-aged gossip womyn in the Houses of Healing.

No. I'm not actually going to write that. I simply enjoy playing Devil's advocate.:D

[Ciara Valentine]

Maybe you sshould stick to Harry Potter questions, which is at the moment what I am doing by re-reading OotP for the answer

[Yellow Banshee]

I dont think that i can see racism in LotR. If you read carefully, you'll see that Gondor had a good relationship with Harad in the past, and that they only fought on HIS side because they were scared. So you could say that Harad was good at one time. The only real racism that i see is Human>non-human. Orcs (Goblins, Uruk-Hai ect.) are the only truly incurrable baddies. But thats just what i think.

[Ciara Valentine]

You do have a point, but the orcs at one time were human weren't they? A breed of man and goblins...I think

[Inlé_rah]

You do have a point, but the orcs at one time were human weren't they? A breed of man and goblins...I think

No. Elves. Untill Saruman added humans to the mix.

[Yellow Banshee]

yes, orcs were mutilated, brainwashed Elves. Goblins...well the book never really tells where they came from or what they are, but it's clear that they're not human. Then Sauruman bred Humans into Goblins (kinda gross to think about it, huh?). this allowed his new breed (the fighting Uruk-Hai) to be able to stand the light of day. However, the book dosn't really talk of them as if they were anything near the Elves, Dwarves, or Men.

[Ciara Valentine]

No. Elves. Untill Saruman added humans to the mix.
So you aren't going to analyze or critcize or anything? You have joined us at last then.....But do you prefer LotR? Or Harry Potter?

[Inlé_rah]

So you aren't going to analyze or critcize or anything? You have joined us at last then.....But do you prefer LotR? Or Harry Potter?
At last? Joined you? Huh?
How am I supposed to defend the orcs with Tolkein's inescapeable black-white, good-evil dichotomy? Did they have difficult childhoods or something? (Oh wait...I don't think that they have childhoods...):chuckle:

One thing I like about Harry Potter is that the good/evil thing is much more ambiguous and becomes more so as Harry gets older, a rare find in fantasy lit.

As for Tolkein? I love LotR because Middle Earth is a world in which the things that are beautiful are much more beautiful than those that we know yet those things which are terrible are also greatly more so terrible. Its also better written, even though I always chuckle when reading RotK because of the language sounding like stuff you find in the Hebrew Bible: "and it was written in the Book of the Kings." Lol. :D

I like both apples and oranges.

[Yellow Banshee]

Actually, orcs do have childhoods. Elves have them, and orcs are evil Elves (to an extent). I like definite good and evil. It allows for a clear unhinderd story line.

[Inlé_rah]

Actually, orcs do have childhoods. Elves have them, and orcs are evil Elves (to an extent).

Except that they are 'created' or 'made' or 'ruined' or whatever. I dun know, but I do know that I really REALLY don't want to have a discussion of how orcs breed.

I like definite good and evil. It allows for a clear unhinderd story line.
Then stay clear of nearly everything that is deemed 'great literature' because those works almost always have nasty hindered storylinessses and moral ambiguity... ;)

[shortkut]

No. Elves. Untill Saruman added humans to the mix.
sorry, when i read this it was like you were talking about twix adding peanut butter to the mix

[Yellow Banshee]

that was... funny (I guess).

[Inlé_rah]

that was... funny (I guess).
You need to lighten up a bit. :)

*passes around pipeweed bongs*
"Ah, Old Toby...best weed in Southfarthing."

[Yellow Banshee]

Your love of the hobbits "pipeweed" has clouded your mind. -Sauruman, the many colored

[Yellow Banshee]

HEY!!! I just went to my User CP. rah, that was NOT kosher. giving me a bad rep just because you dont want mine higher than yours!?!?! Besides, my rep wasn't any higher than yours.

P.S. If it wasn't you, rah (which I'm sure it is). Then whoever it was ditto to above.

[Inlé_rah]

HEY!!! I just went to my User CP. rah, that was NOT kosher. giving me a bad rep just because you dont want mine higher than yours!?!?! Besides, my rep wasn't any higher than yours.

P.S. If it wasn't you, rah (which I'm sure it is). Then whoever it was ditto to above.
Now, let's not be hasty.-Fangorn

I've never yet given anyone a good reputation mark nor a bad one, mostly because I think the whole thing is stupid. It would take a lot to get a bad mark from me, none of this triffling crud about wanting a higher reputation than another person. Of course, I can't prove it, but if something was serious enough for me to give someone a bad rep, I'd at least have the courage to sign my name to it, fully realizing that I'd have just given them a carte blanche for petty revenge.

Edit: I do, however give you kudos for not immediately unleashing all your unholy powers of reputation-lowering revenge on me. *gives sniper a bucket of kudos*

PS: It's Inlé. 'Rah' is just a title. :)

Ok, folks. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along...

[Yellow Banshee]

Ok, I believe you. Sorry. Some jerk gave me a bad rep and said it was just because "Noone should have a hier rep than me [sic]". Yeah, I wouldn't give anyone a bad rep unless I was sure they deserved it.

[Yellow Banshee]

Come on! Stealing from Zelda!?!?!?!?!?!?! Surely you can think of something better than that!

[Inlé_rah]

Come on! Stealing from Zelda!?!?!?!?!?!?! Surely you can think of something better than that!
I did. I stole from the Odyssey. :tease:

Aeolus is the ruler of the 4 winds whom gives them to Odysseus in a goat-skin sack so that he can have calm seas and sail back to Ithaca, free of Poseidon's wrath. Unfortunately, his crew, thinking that the bag contains gold, open it, and their blue-prowed ship is blown away in a great storm just as it is within sight of the shores of Ithaca. Of course, now that I had to explain that...its hardly fun anymore...:sad:

[Yellow Banshee]

I knew about the Odyssey. I meant the wind waker refference.

[Ciara Valentine]

*All of the story lines*

they seem to be good! Maybe you should post it on the creative writing thread!
Deadlysniper, maybe you should recap on your greek history, just in case anyone else uses the ideas.....

[Yellow Banshee]

Ok, ok. This is the most off topic line of posts I've ever seen. I mean, come ON.

[shortkut]

if it bothers you that much i'll fix it

[Ciara Valentine]

You're right! We seem to have gone from LotR to the Odysee......I would have thought if the topic was going to change it would at least have a similar theme!!!

[Ciara Valentine]

Where has everyone gone? Anyway, I've finished it it was brilliant, I have the three films, and I have the adress to Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn) Who is most definately the most beau of them all *blush*.
Ok, I have an idea. Let's just go over our favourite parts of the book, our favourite characters and so on and so forth......Everyone ok with that...Is there anyone actually here?

[Showsni]

OKay...
My favourite character (in the books) is Pippin. I like the bits where he is the central character - e.g. the Siege of Gondor chapter.

[Ciara Valentine]

Yeah Pipin's nice in the books, and in RotK he has a great singing voice. I like (in the books)....I think I like Legolas and Sam best in the books, Legolas 'coz he knows more about stuff, yo know, more poems and stuff, and Sam 'coz he's funny at some points, and he never gives up.

[TiMMy_handicap]

i like aragorn and legolas the best in the books. I think gandalf is the best in the movies (whats not to like about a powerful wizard). My favourite part in fotr (the first one) is when they fight the troll. In the two towers i liked when the riders of rohan ambush the orcs that captured merry and pippin. In rotk the best part was when frodo, sam and gollum/smeagol are passing the ringwraith leader's castle and it erupts.

[ddicaire]

my favorite character in the book is gandalph. i mean he kills the balrog of morgoth wards off the nazgul and he has a tight sword!! but in the movies im a sucker for good effcets and thats where legolas steals the show. he walks on-not through- the snow on the mountain pass and kils an oliphant single handedly!!!! THATS COOL!!!!!!! :bow:

[Teh Airhead]

My favorite characters are Gollum (because he is such a complex character) and Eowyn (because I nearly dropped the book when she told the Witch-king who she really was).

I love all of the poems and songs too, they are just a few of the things that make this book so great.

[Ciara Valentine]

I think Eowyn is great. She tried to be in the Rohirrim, even though she's a woman, and no-one finds out, because she wants to protect her brother and uncle.
Another of my favourite parts is in RotK, when the ring is destroyed, and the land just kinda collapses into oblivion in front of the Alliance. My sister found it scary and kept shouting at the screen.."Move move move you'll fall in!" she's only 5 bless 'er.

Has anyone else read the other books? Unfinished tales, Tom Bombadil etc? I want to read them but I just don't have the time, what with school starting again and homework piling up all over the place.

[Inlé_rah]

Another of my favourite parts is in RotK, when the ring is destroyed, and the land just kinda collapses into oblivion in front of the Alliance. My sister found it scary and kept shouting at the screen.."Move move move you'll fall in!" she's only 5 bless 'er.
My sister is 12, and she's scared of the ringwraith parts of the first film...

Has anyone else read the other books? Unfinished tales, Tom Bombadil etc? I want to read them but I just don't have the time, what with school starting again and homework piling up all over the place.
I've read the Silmarrilion, in addition to the Lord of the Rings, and the Hobbit, but that's about it.

If you are prone to skimming through the appendixes in the back of RotK for information on the "what the hell are they talking about" events that are mentioned in the Lord of the Rings, I would recommend the Silmarillion. The Music of the Ainur (Ainulindalë) and the Valquenta are relatively dull but I liked the Quenta Silmarillion and the Akallabêth well enough.

[shortkut]

I've read the Silmarrilion, in addition to the Lord of the Rings, and the Hobbit, but that's about it.

If you are prone to skimming through the appendixes in the back of RotK for information on the "what the hell are they talking about" events that are mentioned in the Lord of the Rings, I would recommend the Silmarillion. The Music of the Ainur (Ainulindalë) and the Valquenta are relatively dull but I liked the Quenta Silmarillion and the Akallabêth well enough.

same. when i started to read the silmarillion i put it down so many times because it was boring (i was also 12/13 at the time) but it eventually picks up. and just from reading the silmarillion and the appendixes of ROTK you get the synopses of what happens in all the other books including the 3 main story line books

[Ciara Valentine]

Argh! So annoying I can't find the books anywhere! I've looked in almost every library in a 10k radius!! oh well, guess it wasn't meant to be yet......ah ha *thus she descovered ebay* maybe they have it?.....*computer crashes* damn......thus was how i spent the last two weeks with th stupid, useless computer :bash:

[Showsni]

Which books? The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc. or the Lord of the Rings?

Anyway, if your local library's like mine (Gloucestershire County Council) it will have a website where you can choose any book from any library in the county, reserve it, get them to send it to your nearest library and post a letter to tell you when it arrives, all for free. http://opac.gloscc.gov.uk is the address.

[James89]

I have all 3 movies and have read somr of The Two Towers. My favorite part in FOTR is when Gandalf Defends the rest of the Fellowship inMoris from that Firey Beast. In TTT's Is The Battkle of Helm's Deep. In ROTK is when Rohan comes as Calvary fo Gondor. And then when they charge staright at the Oliphants is awesome. Also Gandalf's pep talk to the soliders of Gondor Before the Orcs break through the first gate was cool.

I've got a question. In The Lost Tales does it teel about Gandalf's journeys when he passed out?

[Inlé_rah]

Argh! So annoying I can't find the books anywhere! I've looked in almost every library in a 10k radius!! oh well, guess it wasn't meant to be yet......ah ha *thus she descovered ebay* maybe they have it?.....*computer crashes* damn......thus was how i spent the last two weeks with th stupid, useless computer :bash:
Amazon.com?

I guess they don't have Barnes and Noble there. :D

I've got a question. In The Lost Tales does it teel about Gandalf's journeys when he passed out?
You don't need to read the Lost Tales to figure that out (unless, of course, I'm getting it all wrong). Actually, this might be more difficult than I thought since you've only read a little of the book (which gives little detail) and watched the films. Most of the detail in this, I learned from the Silmarillion. I'll try to keep this as simple as possible. I'm sorry! There's just more to the question than you think. *sheepish grin*

First, in the true West are the undying lands or Valinor (I know that Valinor was mentioned in the film.) which is removed from the world to all except those who have the grace to find it (eg. the elves. Think of Elrond's line to Arwen "the grace of the Eldar is leaving you"). Valinor is where the Valar dwell, and the Valar are the fourteen "powers of the world." (well there were 15, but that's a very very very long story). Imagine the Greek pantheon of gods and you get the rough idea.

In the beginning of the world two kindreds were envissioned by the creator (Iluvatar): the elves and men.

Elves, though they are immortal beings, can die in a way. When they die, their spirits flee to the West (Valinor) to dwell in the Halls of Mandos (the closest thing M-E has to an underworld), and there they wait untill, after a time, they can be re-embodied. The same apparently goes for the wizards or Istari. Men's spirits also go to Mandos, but they do not remain there and are therefore not bound to the world.

Gandalf, as you know is a wizard, one of the Istari (an order of Maia, lesser than the Valar but still very powerful) who were sent to Middle-earth by the Valar during Third Age. The wizards were sent by the Valar to aid Elves and Men in their struggle against Sauron. In the book RotK, there is a scene where Gandalf is having a rather terse discussion with Denethor (who the film does not do justice), and Gandalf says that he too is a sort of steward, except that he is a steward of all good things in Middle Earth.

When Gandalf battled the Balrog, he did die; his spirit left his body and probably went to Mandos in the West. But Mandos (the Lord of Fate this time; his Halls share that name) has the power to re-embody and send back which spirits he wishes at what time he wishes. And in this case, returning Gandalf to Middle-Earth was necessary to the Valar's plan, especially after the corruption of Saruman. Gandalf returned rather quickly, it seems, (in the book, it was about a month. In the movie it's like, what? 4 days?) back to Middle-earth to complete his task. (Kinda like cutting to the front of the line at the Post Office a few days before Christmas...except it's not Christmas, but the ruin of the world or something of the sort.):D

Ok. That was fun. Middle Earth Cosmology 101. w00t-ness!



No. Wait, actually, I can't believe I just did that. Or I can believe I did that since I don't want to do my course reading: Paradise Lost.

"Better to rule in Arda than to serve in Aman"
--Fëanor... Or not. :D

It's actually a bastardized quote by Satan in Paradise Lost: "Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." Oh those nasty Valar. Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! </ignore me>

[shortkut]

:D

[Inlé_rah]

:D
I have a sneaking suspicion that I am being mocked. *plots revenge*

Elsewhere...at the gateway that leads to the Timeless Void...

*knock knock*

"Yes?"
"It's Inlé. I know you remember me!"
"Oh. Come in, I guess... Assuming you don't get locked in...or out, depending on how you look at it"
"Don't worry. I've yet to be expelled from Eä, unlike you. And I can break any of these ill-defined cosmological rules as I see fit. See? I propped the Door."
"Right...so what do you want?"
"I need to borrow Grond."
"What for?"
"Taking care of certain irksome foes intent on humiliating me and mocking my power in all its uberawesomeness. No good intentions. Promise."
"I don't know. I have a lot of fond memories of that war hammer."
"But you have little need of it here. I'll return it."
"Well...I'll let you borrow it...if..."
"...if?"
"Would you play a game of Risk with me?"
"Er....ok?"

*4 hours later...well technically the idea of hours makes no sense in a Timeless Void...but nevermind that...an eternity, then...a timeless eternity lasting about 4 hours*

"No! No! NO!!! You do not get 10 extra companies if you control the continent of Beleriand! And you don't even control it! See? I still have companies in Falas, Balar, and Doriath...."
"Well I do control all the stuff to the North and most of the East! I've been slowly kicking your ass for...well...for a long time. For that I should get something!"
"Er. No. Because you do not control the continent... *sigh* I hate this game..."
"So...if I send an army with a superior force through the gap" *rolls dice* I'll just beat down what remains of your forces in Doriath for a while." *rolls dice again* If I'm lucky, I'll get my continent by the end of my turn" *rolls*
"Hate. This. Game."
*rolls* "...and that would make Doriath mine." *Moves troops.*
"Damn you! BAUGLIR!"
"Now that wasn't very nice. Are you finished soon? And by finished, I mean..."
"I know what you mean. And yes. Short of some sort of timely divine intervention." *moves scattered forces towards the coast*
"In that case, as long as my victory is near complete, you can borrow Grond now."
"Finally. Excellent. Eggzellent"
"Monopoly next time?"
"Right..."

This time shortkut, a simple mirror will do little to protect you... :tease:

[shortkut]

what if i have a magic ring that can turn me invisible and one of feanor's shinies?

[AlecTrevylan006]

Nothing next to the two bong which inle controls.

And LotR Risk-SILMARILLION EDITION! WIshful thinking

[shortkut]

but i also have the pi-bong

[Inlé_rah]

And LotR Risk-SILMARILLION EDITION! WIshful thinkingOnly if you actually like Risk, and the game is only fun if you are winning, slowly crushing your opponent. *longing smile*

But there is one gaping problem with your idea. In normal Risk, for example, I tend to build empire in Asia and then sweep through the Americas by way of Siberia. My opponents always expect an attack on a European front because they forget the world is round. Eä? The world round? Not for another age...

I'd infinitely prefer chess anyways...

[shortkut]

chess is better than risk but stratego is better than chess. i want to learn how to play go.

[Inlé_rah]

*bump*

Must save the sole LotR thread that actually talks about the books...as well as Silmarillion-style Risk...

shortkut: Only I say when to bump!
Inlé: Look! Shinies!
shortkut: Where??!!
Inlé: Sucker. *flees as if chased by the nine*

[shortkut]

shortkut: shinies, come out come out where ever you are.
shortkut: i won't hurt you. i will just take you
shortkut: *sniff* no shinies :cry:
shortkut: hey, where'd Inlé go?
shortkut: where is every body?
spike: i'm here
shortkut: i'm all alone :bawl:

[Tokito's Girl]

If you liked LOTR then I suggest you read The Hobbit then, that's a really great book to. J.R.R Tolkien is my all time favorite author, his books are better than the Harry Potter books but I'm a big fan of those books as well.